Alright, now I'm mad. I proceeded to load up some 117g SBT's tonight with some RL-22 and H-4831. Well when it came time to bullet seating, I wanted to go with 3.250" as its the SAAMI OAL. It's always worked in my old Ruger and you can go out to 3.250" on my dads Ruger. Hell, even right next to the 117g it says 3.250" Well let me tell you I cant even get close to seating them out to 3.250" Not even 3.2" There still getting jammed into the lands and its scuffing the bullet up real bad. My main question is this, are all Winchesters like this or did I get a bad one? Rifle is a brand new Winchester Model 70 Classic in 25-06. I also tried seating some 87g sierras to there advertised 3.150" and they are harder then heck to get the bolt to close while still showing the marks that there hitting the lands. I am pretty mad now because I know theres nothing me personally I can do. Any comments or help as what to do is greatly appreciated.

I wouldn't know if this is common to the Winnies but have encountered this with Remingtons, the most recent being a 7mm Mag in Mod 700. If you've ever looked at a Nosler manual you'll recall they don't publish OAL data for the most part, reason being that each gun is a creature unto itself, and each bullet sets it's own standard for a given gun. Your solution is to determine your own Max OAL and go from there. There are several ways to do this that are simple exercises. Too, you might get in touch with Winchester and see what they have to say. I wouldn't be getting all that hot about it in your shoes.

It can be vexing on the other hand to have a throat cut too long.

Rem man.
My model 70 30,06 is the same way. Don't fret. Just keep seeting the bullet a little deeper, once you get it to close go in 1 more complete turn wih your seating stem. thats how I load for all my rifles.Also are you using fresh brass ? if your brass was fire formed to another chamber that Might eplain why you having trouble closing the bolt on the 87 grain. I would recomend closing the bolt on a factory round. I bet it works fine. Funny thing is my stw, a rifle you would love cause it shots a well as any sporter ever will, is a long throated model 70. If you do have a problem alison and cary in portland are a winchester waranty station. I can feel your frustration, but if the holes it the target are close together I bet you will feel better in a hurry.
tj3006

I have noticed Nosler doesn't specifically say so, but next to the Sierra 50th Anniversary manual, right underneath the bullet, it says cartridge OAL 3.250" I have experience loading the 25-06 in my old Ruger and my dad has a Ruger 25-06. I can put the loaded 3.250" 117g shell into my dads gun and close the bolt without the slightest problem. You slide that shell into my gun (winchester) even at 3.2" and its got marks all over it. Even at 3.150" its got marks all over it. Marks being the lands. Not to mention, you almost have to get a rubber mallet to get the bolt to close. Now I know accuracy has a little role with the bullets seated out longer. 90% of my loads for the 25-06 are 3.225" or 3.250" I cant even use them for a starting point in this Winchester. It makes me mad because I know that if the accuracy is not there, this has to be the main reason. Everybody else's 25-06 I see usually seat out to at least 3.2" as well, if not the longest advertised of 3.250" for there loads. Why is this gun so much different? I still have PLENTY of room in the magazing box when these are seated out to 3.250" thats not the problem. The problem is inside the chamber. I did buy the gun from a military surplus store that sells 10 used guns to 1 new gun. This one was advertised as "new" with a box. I looked it over best I could and so did my dad, we both came to the conclusion it was indeed "new." In my eyes, this is a very stupid big problem for me. It should not be happening and its put me in a very bad mood because today was the calmest day we've had in weeks, and I cant shoot any loads becuase none of them fit. Even with the books OAL or my OAL's. Maybe this is why I never really liked Winchesters. One problem after another.

Does it make sense that I should have to load the 117g SBT to anything lower than 3.150"? It just does not look right, or sound right, and even seated that far down, still get the land marks and hardness of the bolt to close. The past 2 Rugers I have loaded for were the MKII S/S. Like I said, the 3.250" shell will fit into my dads Ruger without a problem, and I can bet it would have fit in my old Ruger without a problem. I know usally, that varmint bullets you needed to seat down farther because of the ogive and they would get stuck in the lands. I've never been able to seat a 75g v-max at 3.250" I know that for a fact, but my 75g v-max was seated out to 3.2" in my Ruger and they fit without a problem. All I know is, something is not right and I hope I can fix the problem, or I"ll be getting rid of this gun. I'm not going to be loading 117g SBT's at the lowest possible length when I know they should be fitting in the gun without problems at 3.250" End of story. I'll just have to take it to a gunsmith, even though I should not have to do so.

You might have a problem , But I still say shoot the darn thing and find out ! ...tj3006

The brilliant bean counters at work again, and some "gunsmiths"...give you a long box and a short throat, very common among rifle builders, or a long throat and a short box, take your pick, neither work particularly well..

As long as it is not causing a compressed load I would keep seating it shorter until the bolt would close but not too tightly. As the barrel wears the throat will get longer. Wish I could be of more help.

Have you fired it yet? You might have a burr in the chamber left from cutting the throat. Have it checked before firing, especially if you find the usable OAL to be very short! Are the marks on the bullets uniformly spaced like the rifling will be, or scuffed all over?

This response is very late (just saw the post looking for something else). I have an old Winchester M70 Classic in 25-06 made in the 90s'. I measured for OAL calculations (bullet touching the rifling) the following for 100g bullets:
Sierra Pro-Hunter . . . 3.128"
Hornady SP Interlock . . . 3.167"
Nosler Partition . . . 3.190"

As you can see, none would allow SAAMI Max OAL. To give even a few hundred thousandths of clearance off the lands, you would of course shorten the measurements above even more. Having said all this, the rifle is a sub-MOA shooter now, but had to glass bed the stock to get there. The shorter COAL is not an issue.

A 10 year old thread necro'd back to life!

That has to be a record!

Saeed should give you a prize for that one.

As long a the thread is open again......I ran into this 3 months ago with a .264 win. I could not even get close to SAAMI max with Nosler BT's so I loaded them short and they shot extremely well. I was curious as to why the green box 140's were so much longer yet still fit so I measured the six remaining bullets and they measured .2578ish to .259! WTH?

At one time some brands of 264 cal bullets had a two step bullet OD...I don't know what brands or what bullets...a bore riding section in front for a certain length to be able to seat the COAL to standard length and still fit the various chamber throats and get the very extreme velos in a "normal" length barrel.

sounds like you might have some of those bullets.

Sinclair has a bullet/chamber measuring tool so you can get an accurate ACTUAL cartridge OAL for the various bullet profiles.

You can always throat your rifle by hand...all the reamer renters have throater's.

My 25-06 Savage Axis has a long throat and I can seat 120 grain bullets out upwards of 0.200" more than manual listings...3.40" touching with a 120 Hornady HP listed at 3.24"...my 25-06 Rem Sendero was throated right on for a 120 Hornady at Hornady's listed length which made for a bit of a bullet jump for a 75 gr Vmax...this is pretty much normal...some makers throat the various calibers to whatever lengths the deem the best COMPROMISE. Only THEY can tell you why.

Check out Sinclair...the tool is easy to make and you can use cleaning rod stops as the measuring points.

The ammo was new production 140 gr core lock, but I doubt they have a bore riding bullet any more. My guess is they skip a final swaging step for 25 caliber bullets and use them for 264 mag. they were not especially round either..... I was more concerned that had I just went with SAMMI max length instead of .020 of lands they would have been over 100 thousands into the lands.

.264 is a different animal. The spec calls for NO leade. The rifling starts exactly at the end of the neck. That is why they are loaded so short. If you load to any sort of book, except, I believe Hornady, you will push the bullets back into the case. I think it is like 3.19 OAL. SAAMI is just stupid on this cartridge. They never looked at any of the reamer manufacturer information. They just made it up as they went along. Even Nosler, in their data, loads to 3.19". Look at "Tested OALC.

Nosler 264

You are right on all points Larry. I usually try to set up reloads .020 off the lands for starters and this had me doublechecking and triple checking my calipers and scratching my head. I still wonder about the undersize corelocks though.......just skid them down the lands? It would explain sorry grouping with the green box and 1/4 inch three shot groups with reloads.

Pet peeve of mine is short throats and short magazines and magazines and throats that don't match...Most factory rifles are just that..bullet seating is worthless on these guns and you get all this good advise on what depth to seat your bullets and I can't count the number of times at the range I have seen guy with bullets seated as recommended here and other places and the bullets wouldn't fit in the magazine of their rifles..

Most factory rifle should have bullets seated to fit the magazine and they always fit the throat even though the have to make a long jump, but surprisingly enough the bullet jump seldom hurts accuracy contrary to popular belief. another guns scribe rumer.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Pet peeve of mine is short throats and short magazines and magazines and throats that don't match...Most factory rifles are just that..bullet seating is worthless on these guns and you get all this good advise on what depth to seat your bullets and I can't count the number of times at the range I have seen guy with bullets seated as recommended here and other places and the bullets wouldn't fit in the magazine of their rifles..

Most factory rifle should have bullets seated to fit the magazine and they always fit the throat even though the have to make a long jump, but surprisingly enough the bullet jump seldom hurts accuracy contrary to popular belief. another guns scribe rumer.

+1

Rusty Rifle, they are actually dual diameter size. Ahead of the cannelure they fit in the rifling just fine, but behind the cannelure, they are .264 so as to engage the rifling.

The advantage of a long throat has nothing to do with accuracy in most rifles, the advantage is basicalluy more powder, considerably more velocity and less pressure.

Example: I recently built a .338 with a long magazine box and matching long throat..I can get 340 Wby velocity with this gun, and it shoots regular factory .338s just as well. I have seen many instances wherein short bullets shot in long throats were super accurate contrary to some reports..A prime example of this is the long throats and long boxes on the Brno mod. 21 and 22. With H414 powder they easily duplicate the 280 and some "factory" 7 mag loads and with decent pressures.

All my 7x57 are set up in this manor..They all shoot 130 gr. Speers at 3150 FPS (favorite deer bullet) and 175 gr. Nosler partitions at 2650 FPS and 160 gr. Noslers at 2916 FPS equally well. Best results come with H414 in the 7x57s.

This practice works with many caliber/powder combinations and is basically the same as the Ackley Imp without blowing the shoulder out, and they all shoot factory ammo as well.

Its been an interesting 40 year study into why rechamber to an improved version when a long throat and matching magazine and seating bullets out further will give you a 5 to 8% powder capacity increase and same in velocity depending on the individual gun.

Of course you could do the same with a Ackley Imp and get even more velocity, but at some point you get diminishing returns in that you would be just as well off with a larger factory caliber.

quote:

Originally posted by larrys:
Rusty Rifle, they are actually dual diameter size. Ahead of the cannelure they fit in the rifling just fine, but behind the cannelure, they are .264 so as to engage the rifling.

Once again you are right on Larry. I pulled a bullet and measured ahead and behind the first cannelure and it is indeed larger behind it. I never would have guessed they still made a dual diameter bullet for one cartridge.