obvioulsy it depends on the cartridge 223 vs 375HH but lets assume were are talklng about the typical 308/30-06 class case that wighs say between 160 and 190 grains

quote:

When u sort cases by wght what is acceptable variance...

That's a personal decision, it varies by both iindvidual choice and case size.

No one has ever published any table of "acceptable" case weight variations. IF someone does, I'll ignore it anyway, I have my own standards.

And what would those standards be or is it a secret...

I don't bother. I don't have any rifles that could tell the difference. Besides, I'm not convinced it makes any difference, what are you accomplishing? Other than spending time that could otherwise be used to load. I know that some figure it has something to do with case capacity, but couldn't the weight be distributed in different parts of the case?

quote:

I don't bother. I don't have any rifles that could tell the difference.

I have wondered as well. After you trim all to the same length, uniform primer pocket and flash hole and chamfer the necks, the case is going to weigh much less than before. I guess if you were to do weight comparisons, I would do it after all case prep, including turning the necks if you like to do that as well.

Are you talking about some sort of balls to the wall, you've used the grocery money to pay the entry fee bench competition??? Are you talking about a one off bench rifle??? If not, your time, IMO, could be better spent waxing the underside of the fridge or writing letters to Joe Biden about his position on gun control. If you are shooting a factory rifle, even one that has had a after market trip to be "accurized" (whatever that means)you will not gain a significant, if anyh, increase in accuracy by weight sorting.
You folks that want to make a lifes work of brass prepping before you ever fire the stuff are wasteing a ton of time that could be spent shooting.

Does anybody really care if I am wasting time?

It's kind of a simple question.

quote:

Originally posted by stillbeeman:
You folks that want to make a lifes work of brass prepping before you ever fire the stuff are wasteing a ton of time that could be spent shooting.

I disagree a tiny bit with this quote, but mostly, I suspect it is "God's truth".

I have some lots of older Remington brass which vary in weight well over 12 grains WITHIN EACH LOT! If I was going to use any of that brass, I'd certainly feel better about it if I sorted it into about three 5-grain lots. Then it would probably perform better, if for no other reason, because I felt better about it. So that is where I disagree...sometimes weight-sorting is worth the placebo effect it produces.

But, I won't use brass like that if ANY other is available...in fact I've already got the batches in mind sold at only slightly less than it cost me. I've gone out and bought much better stuff...Lapua or RWS when available, Sako or Norma as a second choice. The good thing about better made brass is that it is not only more consistent in weight, it is more consistent in dimensions AND performance.

Anyway, even in BR competition, I never weight-sort brass. I do sort it by dimensions after completely match-prepping it, and in some kinds of matches I even use only one case, reloading the same after every shot (can't get much more consistent than that...).

There are two major problems with weight-sorting that I can see...

1. The same makes of brass which have large variations in individual case weight also seem to have great variations in wall thickness within each individual case....that is, one side may be as much as .003"-.005" (or even more) thicker than another side of the same case. And worse yet, the location of the wall thickness variations seems to be pretty much random.

So how is weight-sorting gonna cure that? It won't.

2. There are a LOT of other things a shooter can do which can produce better results in the same amount of time. Learning to be a "hard-holder" for one. Learning the idiosyncracies of your rifle and trigger for another. Learning how to read (and how to "hold off" for) the wind for yet another.

Truly, if I was to make a list of 25 things which might help a shooter reach a particular accuracy level, weight-sorting brass within a single lot or batch still might not rank high enough to make the list at all. If it did, I'll bet a little bit of pocket change that it wouldn't rank higher than the bottom one or two.

I have weighed brass for the .303 British across several different brands and brass made from other cases and found a total weigh variation of 30 grains. The heaviest cases produce a higher point of impact.

I agree that it is your time to use in any manner you wish. And to carry that to its logical conclusion, you can set up your variance parameters at whatever floats your boat. I have read learned discussions (that is to say, I have read small parts of learned discussions) about the "best" angle to use when cleaning the inside of the flash hole --that's something else I think is a monumental waste of time. I'm sure to the folks having these discussions, it was an important thing to consider.
I sort brass by manufacturer but I don't weight it. I have also found that no matter how much time you waste prepping that brass and uniforming that brass, when you fire it the first time for the reasons posted above, you are gonna have a number of unexplained flyers.
I consider fire forming my first step in brass prep. After its first firing, its prepped and then the flyers are culled as its fired for the second time.

If you go to the trouble to weigh them, just cull the ones that are obviously different from the rest. If they weigh into obvious batches, separate the batches. Your only reason for culling and separating is because you've determined that for some reason, unknown, they are different. You really don't know that there will be any difference in performance among any of them.

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
2. There are a LOT of other things a shooter can do which can produce better results in the same amount of time. Learning to be a "hard-holder" for one.

Sorry to steal the thread, but AC, perhaps you could expand on this "hard holder" bit, please?? That would interest me.

Reason I ask: I actually prefer not holding onto my rifles when shooting off a bench - or at least as little as possible. It cuts down on movement when sighting. However, I have found that when I shoot certain rifles in calibers much above .222/.223/6PPC etc, I manage to get better groups when I tighten up my muscles, pull the stock firmly into my shoulder and (as little as I like it) and firmly hold onto the pistol grip.(I still don't hold onto the forearm, unless it happens to be gun that jumps a lot in recoil).

I don't like sighting this way, as the grip introduces shakes, but I seem to get less flyers in my groups. Incorrectly or not, I normally think of this as "not letting the gun get away from me"... Is this what you mean by "hard holding" perhaps??

- mike

First, I do not weight-sort brass, but neither do I load to absolute max (or in most cases not even close). It seems to me that if we are talking about variations of 12 to 30 grains of weight, the potential for dangerously reduced case volume and increased pressures exist. Just a thought, have a great day.

Bill Gravalt and Fred Sinclair wrote the following; “We feel that a variance of 1.5% case weight or less is an acceptable level for keeping cases in a group”. You need to remember that these guys strive for a level of accuracy that can not be achieved with an over the counter rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by mho:

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
2. There are a LOT of other things a shooter can do which can produce better results in the same amount of time. Learning to be a "hard-holder" for one.

Sorry to steal the thread, but AC, perhaps you could expand on this "hard holder" bit, please?? That would interest me.

Reason I ask: I actually prefer not holding onto my rifles when shooting off a bench - or at least as little as possible. It cuts down on movement when sighting. However, I have found that when I shoot certain rifles in calibers much above .222/.223/6PPC etc, I manage to get better groups when I tighten up my muscles, pull the stock firmly into my shoulder and (as little as I like it) and firmly hold onto the pistol grip.(I still don't hold onto the forearm, unless it happens to be gun that jumps a lot in recoil).

I don't like sighting this way, as the grip introduces shakes, but I seem to get less flyers in my groups. Incorrectly or not, I normally think of this as "not letting the gun get away from me"... Is this what you mean by "hard holding" perhaps??

- mike

Mike - I think I may have misled you a little by using that term. It is basically a "high-power" term ("full bore" to we Canucks). In the contexts where it is usually applied, I think it often means "steady holder" or "consistent holder" rather than a person who holds their rifle very tightly.

When Nancy Gallagher & "Mid"
Thompkins used to shoot at our range in Phoenix, AZ the term was often applied to her. There it was very noticeable that her prone position was VERY consistent at all distances, as was her shot timing, her faithful watching and assessing the wind, the movements she used when adjusting her sights, the gear she brought to the line and where she placed it, and so forth. All aspects of being a "hard holder"

Of course, teaching your muscles how to hold your rifle(s) so the sights "bounce" or waver as little as possible is an important part too. That muscle memory is developed only by shooting...either live or "dry" fire.

When it comes to BR shooting I, like you, prefer not to hold my rifle at all. There the only part of the rifle I touch once my rifle is "on aim", is the trigger...and I use triggers set at about an ounce or maybe a hair less on all my rifles in BR competition.

Back to bigger cartridge, harder kicking rifles such as most big game rigs...like you I have found that some of my rifles need to be held very tightly, others very loosely, and some neither tight nor loose.

The trick is to find out what each one likes and to learn to do it consistently. Learning that will often do far more for accuracy results than just about any loading trick a guy can play.

And the "consistency" of "hard-holders" is really just as important in BR competition or hunting, too. Finding out what one's rifle requires by way of shooting technique, and learning to DO one's shooting that particular way will always produce better results quicker than just about anything that super refinements can do for a guy's ammo.

That doesn't means super ammo refinements are useless, just that there are things more important which most shooters can improve on. I'm sure you already know that, just from the little discussion of it in your quote above.

Best wishes, AC

i tried sorting cases by weight and found most all were with in a couple grains (+or-)what i did start to pick up on was that some cases in a batch would strick the target just out of the main group. i started setting these cases aside and loaded them seperate from the others. the results were that the case that were out of the maing group had a diffrent point of impact.
rechecked every thing i could check. some were heavier and some were lighter than the main batch of cases, all measured the same. volume was too close to call.
took the cases to an old time gun crank and reloader and he did his thing and the only thing he determined was that there was a diffrence in the bullet grip. took some to work about 20 rounds and used a tensil machine to pull the bullets and found that some pulled harder than others only by a couple ounces.
resized and reseated with new bullets and did it again with about the same results. tried putting these into seperate batches and the results were pretty much the same the cases that pulled hard had some out side the main group as did the the cases that were easier to pull. so the moral of my story is i did a lot of tinkerin and did no achieve to much excep i still do not know if weighing cases makes that much of a improvement, but now I know how to control neck tension and that was the biggest improvement in groups.
Dave

quote:

You folks that want to make a lifes work of brass prepping before you ever fire the stuff are wasteing a ton of time that could be spent shooting.

Not really, at least not most of us. I and many others reload in spare time on evenings during the week and shoot it on Saturday. There's no conflict for time in that.

The only reason I can think of to sort cases by weight is to get some sort of consistancy in internal volume which can be measured as water grain capacity (capacity of the fired brass in grains of water), which would mean more consistancy in pressure which might contribute to lower extreme velocity spread. If that is the case, the only approach that directly measures the parameter of interest is to do what ever prep is desired to start with, fire form the cases and "then" sort them by water grain capacity before depriming them.

I suspect the theory behind weighing is that equal weight brass will have equal internal volume. But weight is still an indirect measure of internal volume. Volume can be measured but it would be an onerous task faced with a few hundred new brass.

That said, I don't sort brass by weight. I do get water grain capacity for 3 fired cases of particular brands of brass and average it to use in QuickLoad for modeling purposes. There are definite differences in internal volume between brands - Nosler having significantly smaller internal volume in the instances where I've used it.

I do deflash primer holes, trim to uniform length and chamfer the case mouth before the first firing.

Fitch

Thanks AC, much appreciated!
- mike

I do sort cases by weight.
It's just one of the variables in the accuracy equation, but, it adds with the other variables to get the best I can get from a chambering.
With the digital scale I use, I can sort 100 cases in an hour. I've been retired for 14 years, live alone, and time, for me, is a non-issue. I can afford the hour for the accuracy I get ultimately.
Generally speaking, I let the brass weight variation dictate how many case weight groupings I end up with. After reading what MicinColo posted yesterday, I checked my groupings and found that I could consolidate a few of them and still be within the 1.5% weight variance. My original sort had some fairly large groupings in less than 1.5%. I was weighing Winchester 223 brass yesterday. I think the one very important thing I accomplished yesterday was eliminating some odd balls that were way too heavy, and one that was way too light from the rest of the bell curve. Doing the Sinclair sort, I can end up with three groupings that come within the 1.5%. The odd balls I'll use for sighters or fowlers; or, for seating depth gages with bullets seated in empty cases. I make up a gage for each different bullet I use seated in an unusable case for adjusting the seating depth stem in the die.
I think I get some pretty fine groups by paying attention to every variable that affects accuracy.
I did weigh a lot of Norma 223 brass, and it was about the best I've measured for weight consistency.

Acceptable variance? Why not make it the same as powder variance? If you load 60gr, + or - .2gr., why not do the same for your cases? They are, after all, your combustion chamber.

Mike, I think you need to add a number 7 to your list:

"You can tell a reload from a factory load by the sound it makes."

Another thing to think about is the following from Bill and Fred.



I have found some of these burrs to be quite large too, especially in Remington and Winchester brass (mostly Remington). Some are heavy enough to throw the case out of one group and into a heavier group. I don’t weigh cases until after they’re trimmed and deburred.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:
Does anybody really care if I am wasting time?

Hey Mike, Not me, cause I Weight-Sort mine too.

quote:

It's kind of a simple question.

Yes it is, but the answer is as complicated as you desire to make it. Some folks sort using Water after Fireforming, but that is not for me.

And I'd recommend you do a P-FLR, Trim to Length, Champfer and Deburr before you begin the Weight Sorting. I can also see where Fire Forming all the Cases and then doing the P-FLR, ect., would be even better, but I do not Fire Form first.

I used to do it with my 1010 Ohaus , talk about being able to "use" some time - OOOH-RAAA! So, if you intend to persue Weight Sorting, an Electronic Scale, of any type would be a HUGE assist as DMB mentioned.

I Weigh the Case and record that Weight on the Case with a piece of 3M Transparent Tape as other Tapes will leave a Glue Residue. When you remove the 3M Tape, it does not leave any Glue Residue. And I record the Weight on a Legal Pad as "Weight Sort 1(WS1)" or whatever you want to call it.

Then I take WS1 and go through the entire List rearranging them from the Lightest to the Heaviest on WS2. This is similar to doing a Pareto Analysis in Quality Assurance.

Then I go make a few copies of WS2 and break the lots into any sizes I desire. If you begin with 300-1000 Cases, you will find large quantities of them are the exact same weight.

I also separate the Lightest and Heaviest into separate Test Groups. Sometimes you see some Group Shifting and sometimes you don't between them. Always makes me wonder what is going on though when I do not see the Group Shift a bit. Makes me suspect that the Load could be better than it currently is.

You do not have to break them into exact Lots of 20 Cases either. I often use 12, 15 or 18 as Lots " if " I'm verifying Loads with 3-shot Groups. That is an interum step for me, because I really prefer Cumulative 1-shot Groups into the same Target from a Clean Barrel for each shot. That is the way I Hunt, so that is the shot I'm most interested in.

After all this blathering, I prefer them to be all the exact same weight in each Lot. If not, I go with 0.1gr difference( 170.0gr and 170.1gr) and sometimes 0.2gr difference(170.0gr, 170.1gr & 170.2gr). A valid argument can be made that the Last Lot actually has only a Variance of "+ or -" 0.1gr from the median.

So, you can make it as complicated as you desire. I've found this to be a good miserable weather project.

It might not help your Groups at all, but it does help build Confidence in the Final Hunting Load and that is why I do it.

Best of luck to you.

HC,

You go farther than I would but thank you very much for actually answering the question

Mike,

quote:

What I have learned on AR:
1. The answer to: Where is the best place to get a steak dinner? is…you really want pork chops
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .010 inches in diameter, 10 grains, and 150 fps
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from
different cartridges
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified so it can carry at least 4 down
5. While a floor plate and a detachable box magazine both use mechanical latches, only the floor plate latch is reliable
regardless of the fact that almost every modern military rifle in the world uses a detachable box magazine including those
chambered in 50 BMG.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact that it is the choice of more military sniper units and law
enforcement agencies than any other rifle.


(I have done my best to refrain from idiotic comments, given that I refuse to spell or grammar check.)

I’m not feeling "the love” from you. I don’t have a warm and fuzzy feeling about your thread.

What's your point?

MickinColo,

My thread was 100% serious. I currently sort cases and allow for a variance of 2 grns in either direction and I was wondering what other people do.

I too find that cases of the same mfg will have a spread of about 10%-15% in weight and will fall into three groupings.

As far as the "things, I have learned" just my attempt at a little humor and that folks can take things way too seriously on here.

Mike,

I have spreads of 165 to 172+ grains in cases (old and new) of the same manufactured brass (220 Swift).

If you keep your case weight group at 1 ½% you’ll find that most of your cases will fall within that group.

I keep track of older cases along with new ones. As a case gets older, it gets lighter. Then i resort them as needed.

thanks for the info

Here is what we do here.

We buy brass in bulk - sometimes several thousands at once.

1. Full legth size them - at the same time culling those odd ones that have some shot comings.

2. Trim to uniform length.
3. Uniform primer pocket.
4. Deburr the flash hole.
5. Weigh and sort and pack into 100 lots in zip lock bags.

Some brass, which is for bench rest rifles, are sorted to exact same weight. This is not so difficult, when one needs no more than 1oo cases for a specific rifle. We only do this for custom built rifles in 22 or 6mm PPC. Those rifles shoot groups in the 0s.

Brass for other calibers is sorted according to what we get. Generally I try to keep each 100 lot within 1 grain, regardless of what caliber it is. Sometimes we can lower this to within 0.5 of a grain for each 100 cases.

When we develop loads for any specific gun, we take a 100 lot and use that for that particular rifle.

I just looked at ammo I am going to load for my 375/404. I am splurging out this year, and loading new brass. As some of my old cases have started developing cracks in the neck and shoulders.

I am using new Norma brass, and the 150 cases I am preparing are within 2 grains of each other.

Ultimately, it all depends on what we have.

Sorry Mike, I’m just a little testy tonight. I apologize for that.

quote:

I just looked at ammo I am going to load for my 375/404. I am splurging out this year, and loading new brass.

Geez Saeed,
I thought you oil bandits used a new rifle for each shot.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:
thanks for the info

Mike,
You forgot the one about the infantry rifle caliber that is suitable to kill millions of armed enemy troops but is not adequate to kill a 75 lb doe.

I sort my brass and tag it. I enter the data into Excel and graph it.
Some times the manufacturer will send you junk and it will be all over the place. If it is from two lots the data will have two humps (bi-modal) that you have to deal with. Naturally distributed brass from one lot will be distributed like a bell curve.
There will be some outliers on each tail of the curve. Those case can be used as a small lot of their own or for fouling rounds or die set up.
Other wise you can sell them.
The big group of cases with close weights in the middle of the distribution I use as my main lot.

So if some one offers you new brass in opened factory bags be wary. It might be me selling the highs and lows out a large batch of brass.

I never tended to get really wrapped around that axle. I have checked weights, sorted them by weights within 2g. Cases that vary by more than that if mixed will hold more or less powder. IE diferent point of impact. Within 2g see very little differance. Does not matter what the weight is as long as they are within 2g, sorted that way they shoot the same. All 150-152g all 154-156 etc. More important is same diameter case necks. Big differance here. If for a hunting rifle I really don't bother. Then again I try and buy decent brass, best brass I have found is RWS, Lapua, Norma, then RP, Winchester, and Federal. More differance within lots in that order is what I have found.

Just got my copy of the latest edition of Precision Shooting Magazine.
There's an article in it on this subject for those interested.
I didn't read it yet, but I will. I think it supports weighing cases for better accuracy.

Don

quote:

And what would those standards be or is it a secret...

Sinclair or no, it's still a personal thing, make your own standard.

But do it intelligently. Consider that a grain of difference in a small case has a lot more impact than the same variation in a large case.

Just for insigiht, use wire cutters and cut off a small chunk from the mouth of a trashed case, weigh and trim it until it only weights 1 grain. Then think of how much of an impact that much change, plus or minus, will have. Not much actually but it's still up to the individual to decide.

Obviously, weighting cases and using the idendical ones will "help" accuracy. Question is, how much?

Few, if any, factory rifles will ever notice a typical difference and, even if it does, it will likely require averageing a series of groups using a dial caliper to find it. It sure won't cut groups in half! ??

quote:

Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:
I currently sort cases and allow for a variance of 2 grns in either direction and I was wondering what other people do.

I think your standards are much too generous. If you really care about accuracy, being less selective than .5 grains in either direction is a bit of a problem. As someone else pointed out, however, weight is only a SMALL part of the picture. Assuming you trim to uniform length, you might actually be bringing some cases INTO weight spec when they are far out of spec elsewhere. You must be careful of this! It means that you really have to check brass thickness at various points to ensure uniform ignition. You also need to check the cases before loading (and the chamber of your rifle, by the way) to make sure they are concentric. This will also help with uniform ignition and you should do the same with primer pockets and flash holes. Don't accept more than a 1% variance in these variables in either direction if you want top match grade accuracy. Now, I hate to say that you must, in order to achieve proper accuracy, also be more selective with your powders. There are obviously powders that have a better rep for accuracy than others. These are clearly the ones that you want but you need to improve the accuracy of your charges. Obviously, this can only be done by using a digital scale with at least four decimal places available to you as a reading of "true weight". Even these, of course, are not 100% accurate, so you really need three of them in order to take the average of the three and arrive at a "true" charge weight. Naturally, all of this must be taking place at a constant altitude and barometric pressure to ensure that nothing messes with your measurements. Once you have done these things, you should be able to squeeze just under 1" accuracy out of that .375. Of course, you could avoid all of the above and shoot the darned elephant just behind the front leg and be done with it!!!

quote:

I think your standards are much too generous. If you really care about accuracy, being less selective than .5 grains in either direction is a bit of a problem.

Try comparing the variance that you would allow to the variance in powder charge.

Brass is about 8X more dense than powder.
So one grain of brass takes up the same space as 8 grains of powder. In a large cartridge ± 2 grains weight variation in the brass should not be a big deal.

Hey Mike, I forgot to mention something I learned from a Califoney buddy.

After you get your Lots selected - while Fire Forming - if you happen to get a Flier(where you are certain you did not cause it), mark that Case. You can put some color on the Case Head with a Marks-A-Lot or make a tiny Witness Mark somewhere on the Case Head with your pocket knife. What ever you select, do it the same way, everytime, in the same spot to create a Habit.

The second time you fire that Lot, if the previously Marked Case "widens the group", Mark it again and when you get home, move it into to the Plinking Ammo Cases.

Occasionally something is just different about a Case that causes it to toss a Shot wide of the other Cases in the Lot. Perhaps it is as simple as the Neck Tension being different. But whatever it is, it isn't worth fretting over. Just remove it from the Lot.

Best of luck to you.

I buy brass in large quantities and full length size, trim to uniform length, uniform primer pockets, deburr flash holes, and sort into groups by weight within 1 1/2%. Then I measure for variation in neck wall thickness with a ball tube micrometer and cull brass that is not reasonably uniform. If you don't have a ball tube micrometer, you can mic the diameter of the pressure ring for variances. If there is variance there, it will generally be consistent all the way up through the neck.

quote:

Originally posted by SST:
I buy brass in large quantities and full length size, trim to uniform length, uniform primer pockets, deburr flash holes, and sort into groups by weight within 1 1/2%. Then I measure for variation in neck wall thickness with a ball tube micrometer and cull brass that is not reasonably uniform. If you don't have a ball tube micrometer, you can mic the diameter of the pressure ring for variances. If there is variance there, it will generally be consistent all the way up through the neck.

Sam,

I basically do the same as you do, except for the weight variance. I let the brass dictate what the varience should be, otherwise I can end up with a whole bunch of brass piles with just a few dases in each. For good brass, I get few piles, and they are well within the 1.5%.
Interesting, I just weighed thirty 300 Weatherby Mag cases yesterday to see how it varied. It was Weatherby brass, and was VERY consistent. I'm loading it for a friend.