I just sized some cases (308 Win) in a new die, and it literally scrapes off all the lube before the case gets into the die. They size OK, but a fair bit of grabbing and it feels like a stuck case is eminent. Has anyone experienced this? What are some suggested tweaks for the die?

I was thinking of taking a dowel with a 'flap' of emory cloth and kind of agressively polishing the die body--but was slightly concerned that I might get the die out of shape....

Any ideas would be welcome--Thanks--Don

Are these once fired cases from your rifle? Have you tried to lube a new case and run it through the sizer die? What I'm getting at is maybe your rifle's chamber is too loose. If a new case is this hard to size I think I would contact the maker of the dies and complain and try to get them to replace the die, before doing something that might mess it up.

It sounds to me as if you may have a defective die that is not properly polished inside.

I suggest removing the entire decapping rod assembly, and then feeling the inside of the die with your finger -- assuming your finger is thin enough to fit inside -- to see whether you can feel any burrs or other unevenness in the die.

If you find any evidence of this, I'd recommend returning the die for a replacement.

Thanks for the feedback guys, I guess I should have added a little detail, Luckyducker--they are in fact once fired cases from my rifle, I had actually wondered about the sloppy chamber thing....the cases are 15 thousandths larger when measured just below the shoulder, and 10 thousandths larger at the pressure ring than the case before firing, or an after sizing case--in other words the die does size the cases to almost the identical specs of a couple of different factory ammo cases specs. An unfired empty case will zip right through the die.

I'm gonna disassemble the die right now and check the inside as best I can LE270--maybe it's overkill, but maybe it's another use for my borescope!

Thanks for the ideas--Don

quote:

Originally posted by Fish30114:

I had actually wondered about the sloppy chamber thing....the cases are 15 thousandths larger when measured just below the shoulder, and 10 thousandths larger at the pressure ring than the case before firing, or an after sizing case--in other words the die does size the cases to almost the identical specs of a couple of different factory ammo cases specs. An unfired empty case will zip right through the die.

That's exactly what a full length resizing die is supposed to to: size the brass to the original factory specs.

If you don't find any burrs or other evidence of inadequate polishing in the die, I suggest you continue using it. It's not uncommon to find that full length resizing of brass takes considerable effort in the press.

What kind of case lube are you using? I like the Lee Case Lube. It's wax-based, not oil based. It comes in a tube like toothpaste. I think it is better than the oil-based lubes.

quote:

Originally posted by Fish30114:

I had actually wondered about the sloppy chamber thing....the cases are 15 thousandths larger

Am i being too concerned or does'nt 15 thou seem like a bit excessive on the chamber? I would expect more like 5 but i have never loaded this caliber. Just wondering.
Dick

LE270, I'm using Imperial die wax, always do. It's just a lot more force than any other caliber that I have sized. The die literally scrapes all the lube off as the case enters the die. The die is sizing the case back to the correct specs, but I'm wondering if something like 50 ten thousandths might let some lube into the die and make the process smoother....

Bigholes, I am wondering as well, if those dimensional changes just indicate a really sloppy chamber??--like you, just wondering.

Try using some Imperial Sizing wax. Sinclairs sells it .
It may help somewhat.

Regards , Mike

Sounds like the perfect time to start neck sizing. If you squeeze that brass in all the time it won't last long.

quote:

Originally posted by Fish30114:
I'm wondering if something like 50 ten thousandths might let some lube into the die

I believe you mean half a tenth or 50 millionths. If you are squeezing this brass 10 to 15 thousandths, you are working the brass too much.IMO Anyway it won't do anything but make your dies out of spec. Get a chamber cast and compare that to saami specs. Not to say that it can't happen but i have never seen a die that was not very close to minimum spec which is what you want. To accomplish what you want to with the lube i think you would have to polish out at least 5 to 10 thousandths.
Dick

Sounds like the chamber is a bit sloppy. Give the die maker a call. RCBS I know from experiance will polish out a die to help with a oversize chamber and I believe the others will also. I once had to send the die and three fired cases to them but they had evrything back in no time and did it gratis. (the die was brand new, less then a week old) Needless to say RCBS is the 1st place I look for a tool when I need something.

Bigholes, that is in fact my question, I'm gonna get to the office later and call Hornady--the die mfg. and ask if working the brass 10-15 thousandths is too much.

As far as how much bigger the die would have to be to 'let some lube in' I was thinking the next decimal place whatever that is, I thought ten thousandths, i.e. first three places are 10ths--100ths--1000ths--(what most gauges I have read in) and then the 4th place--10,000ths I thought......

Old Joe, I am trying to assess the chambers dimensions indeed---wonder where I can get some saami specs to determine what the max dimensions of firefromed brass ought to be?

Thanks for the dialogue guys--Don

Send three fired cases from your rifle with the die to your die manufacturer (Hornady)...they will measure and make it right if an adjustment is needed...most die makers will get it done for you N/C.....

I'm also betting oversized chamber. I had a Garand so chambered & you could actually see the case was over expanding. Measure the case diameter at the head (solid area) & just in front. The two dims should be very close or tha same. If there is much of a diff., oversize chamber.

quote:

Originally posted by LE270:
That's exactly what a full length resizing die is supposed to to: size the brass to the original factory specs.

Actually, FL dies do not return the case to factory specs, that's what Small Base dies are for. FL dies can be useless for certain lever, pump, and semi-auto actions that eat up factory ammo without a hitch. Fish30114 has just the opposite problem, however.

I would suspect the chamber, too. The problem could most easily be solved with a neck sizing die - constant resizing that much will reduce case life markedly. And yes, .015" is a lot to be resizing every time.
If this is the only rifle in this caliber you own, having the die customized for it is a workable option - the case shoulders will still have to be set back every few firings and you will need a FL die to do that. This will make the die useless for a normal chamber in this caliber, though, as in effect you will have yourself an "improved" chambering. If you get another rifle, you'll have to get a new die set.

iamgene, fredj and Versifier, that is good intel. I may in fact send the die back to Hornady with some fired cases and see what they think.

LE270 you may have the hook too, I looked inside the die with a 10 power 'loop' and right where I would have guessed based on the grabbing of the case during sizing, I can see something that looks like orange peel. I took a bore mop for a 20 Gauge shotgun and put some Flitz on it and ran it up and down in the die for a little while and then cleaned it out real well, and it seemed SLIGHTLY smoother. I do in fact have a brand new barrel in another model of rifle in the same caliber--I'm gonna try and shoot some of the same factory ammo in it this week and see what the fired brass specs are in it to make a comparison.

Does anyone have any fired brass that they would measure right at the shoulder and at the pressure ring to let me know what they spec out at? I could compare that with the fired brass specs from my potentially sloppy chambered rifle.

Thanks--Don

One of my fired 30/06 measures .4660 in front of the webb and .4435 at the shoulder. How does this compare to yours?

Luckyducker, I guess I'm an idiot for not posting that the caliber is a .308, I will check one of my .06's from my buds fired cases though to compare 'total expansion'

Thanks--Don

quote:

Originally posted by Fish30114:

Luckyducker, I guess I'm an idiot for not posting that the caliber is a .308...

No you are not an idiot; your original post that started this thread says that the caliber is a .308 Winchester.

Thanks LE.

Don

Sorry, somehow I got it in my head it was an '06'.

Once fired .308 (RP, nickel plated) from my Rem788:
neck OD .345"
shoulder .455"
web (3/8" from base) .467"
head .465"

quote:

Originally posted by Fish30114:
Bigholes,
As far as how much bigger the die would have to be to 'let some lube in' I was thinking the next decimal place the 4th place--10,000ths where I can get some saami specs to determine what the max dimensions

Indeed the fourth place after the decimal is one tenth of one thousandth. I just didn't understand your terminology. Nothing critical was implied by my comment.
Can't say as i have come across saami specs themselves, but many reamer manufacturers make their reamers to minimum chamber size. Offhand Clymer Tools.com then go to their reamer design section and find the caliber you want and it has all the dimensions for the chamber reamer. I believe max is about .010 bigger than that.
Hope this helps on your size question.
Dick

quote:

Can't say as i have come across saami specs themselves, but many reamer manufacturers make their reamers to minimum chamber size. Offhand Clymer Tools.com then go to their reamer design section and find the caliber you want and it has all the dimensions for the chamber reamer. I believe max is about .010 bigger than that

I`ve always been under the assumption (likely my mistake) reamers were built to max spec, or at any rate over min spec, so they could be sharpened when dulled and still used as the honeing reduced their dimentions. I realize final polishing will add a little to the final chamber size.
I`m not looking to argue, just trying to clarify for myself which it is.

quote:

Originally posted by Fish30114:
...Does anyone have any fired brass that they would measure right at the shoulder and at the pressure ring to let me know what they spec out at? ...

Hey Don, I thought I'd already run everything through the P-FLRing operation. But, I actually located some 243Wins, 7mm-08s and 308Wins that were Fired and not Resized.

They are all the same SAAMI dimensions at the Shoulder, so the difference in calibers doesn't matter. After checking a whole bunch with a Thin Blade 0.0001" capable Micrometer, the Shoulder averaged 0.4550". Interesting that it was the same as what Versifier saw.

Moving back to the Pressure Ring doesn't really tell you anything, because that can vary significantly depending on the Load being used. And since the Case Head is more a function of the manufacturing process than firing pressure, that dimension really doesn't matter either.

The pressure ring measurement shows what happens when a safe working pressure is used in adequate brass in a normal chamber. An oversize measurement only here (too great a degree of obturation to the chamber) can indicate that either the brass is too soft, or that the load is overpressure. If both the shoulder and pressure ring measurements are oversize, it tends to support the oversized chamber possibility. The more pieces of the puzzle that you have, the easier it is to logically figure out what's causing the problem by eliminating posibilities one by one.
Fish, what is the bullet and powder charge? Was there any indication of overpressure on the primer, like flattening?

quote:

Originally posted by Versifier:
The pressure ring measurement shows what happens when a safe working pressure is used in adequate brass in a normal chamber.

Agree.

quote:

An oversize measurement only here (too great a degree of obturation to the chamber) can indicate that either the brass is too soft, or that the load is overpressure.

The problem here is there is no "consistency" for Pressure Ring Expansion(PRE), each chamber will be slightly different and the internal case dimensions vary as you approach the Case Head. Plus,we all run the loads at different pressures. Due to that, I've never noticed a "specific dimension" that can be universally applied for PRE on the 308Win family of cases.

So, there is no appropriate PRE measurement or even a Case Head "diameter" that is useful across the board or individually for all 243Wins, 7mm-08s or 308Wins. A person must determine that value for themselves, using their specific rifle and their specific components.

Once you get to the Case head portion of the Case, the dimensions vary too much due to manufacturing. Anything provided as a comparison in the PRE or Case Head dimensional area simply enhances the confusion factor.

Best of luck to you.

Well, I just got home and measured a fired and sized case, as well as a unfired factory round. Just for the heck of it I included measurements at the 'base of the case' pressure ring area, and 3/8" up the case.

Fired Case @ shoulder--.458~.459----Sized = .449
Fired Case @ Pressure ring .474-----Sized = .466
Fired Case @ 3/8" up------.468------Sized = .463

The unfired factory cases were virtually the same as a the sized cases.

I'm still trying to figure how to polish the inside of the die myself, just hate to send it back and wait around.

Thanks guys--Don

quote:

Originally posted by Ol` Joe:I`ve always been under the assumption (likely my mistake) reamers were built to max spec,just trying to clarify for myself which it is.

Ol'Joe
Clymer has it on their website that all their reamers are min chamber if you want it different they will make what ever you want special order. I think several others say pretty much the same thing. Just saying what i read.I think the reamer i rented from Reamer Rental for 500a2 was also min chamber.
Is there a web site for saami specs somewhere?
Dick

Your chamber is a little larger than mine, but not excessively so. I think it's your die. If you mess with it, they may not let you return it. Easier to send it in and have them send you a new one. I doubt if you will have to wait very long, but I have never dealt with Hornady's Customer Service.

I would still try a different brand of brass first, just to be sure. Looking at those measurements, I think you will have the same problem with it.

quote:

Originally posted by Versifier:
...I would still try a different brand of brass first, just to be sure. Looking at those measurements, I think you will have the same problem with it.

Hey Versifier, I think you are on the right track with the suggestion to try some other Cases. Maybe the results will be the same, but at least he will eliminate the Cases as being the problem.

Hey Don, I'd encourage you not to be in too big of a hurry. If the Die needs a bit of adjustment for your specific Chamber, then be patient and let the folks that made the Die resolve it for you.

I never see any good come from being in a hurry when it concerns Reloading.

Hey guys, I have tried some other brass, and same issue. I think it is the smoothness of the die. It isn't like it's a real big expense, so I think I'll just buy an RCBS die which they have at my local outdoor store, and work with that for a while. You're right Hot Core, it ain't woth getting in a hurry. I think I will send it back to Hornady with a few fired cases and see what they say/do.

Thanks--Don

quote:

Originally posted by Fish30114:
.. I think I will send it back to Hornady with a few fired cases and see what they say/do. ..

Hey Don, Good for you.

Let us know how it works with the RCBS Dies.