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I stil conseider myself a beginner reloader. I had written a post on my previous results and my concerns with differences with the Nosler manual and others. I received a number of informative responses and would like to invite discussion on the current results. I worked up a new load for a hunt and ran a new set of data with the additon of chronograph. The load: 30-06 Rem 700 factory, slighly modified but factory barrel. Winchester Brass - third firing, full length resized Winchster LR primers Hodgdon H4350 power 165 grain Nosler Accubond Bullets set ~0.025" from the lands The Nosler data report 57.5 grain max load at a velocity of 2872 fps. No pressure reported. Hodgdon and other sources for "jacketed softpoints" to include data found for the ballistic tip report a max load of 59.0 grains at a velocity of 2900 fps+ and report pressures of ~49500 cup. My results, I started lower but will report the 57.5 grain load on up 57.5 grains - avg 2779 fps 58.0 grains - avg 2812 fps 58.5 grains - avg 2829 fps 59.0 grains - avg 2874 fps The 58.5 grain load is the most accurate load I have fired in this rifle. Honest cloverleafs if I did my part. The accuracy increased up to this point. At 59 grains, it fell off a bit (I only fired 3 of this load weight though). There was nothing I could note by hand or visually to indicate excessive pressures with any load. I am planning on using the 58.5 grain load due to its accuracy. It is a full grain above the max in the Nosler manual. The speed on the 57.5 load is a bit lower than I would have hoped, but I would have used it if its accuracy was similar. Just wanting thoughts on this. I have seen it in 2 rifles and a few loads. I am not trying to make this a 300 WM, but the loads in the Nosler manual don't perform to factory ammo in this rifle. Is it reasonable to use the chronograph as a guide? Still not sure if it is the best or worse reloading purchase I have made  Am I mising something? Or, am I a complete idiot? | ||
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You did it most correctly. Shoot, enjoy, kill a nice deer. "Make yourselves sheep and the wolves will eat you" G. ned ludd | |||
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I did not see your previous thread, but the caliber you are using is one where there can be two different "standards" ie. a more conservative one for older rifles, and a more "liberal" one for newer built rifles. Thus the manufacturer, not knowing which rifle you are using will quote the more conservative loads. In addition, and I am not familiar with the Nosler manual, a good manual will state what kind of test firearm was used. Some will use a "test barrel", others will state the name of the firearm eg. Rem 700 etc. I have NEVER worried about velocity. I have always worried about accuracy, then, if I am curious I will chrono the loads. Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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My books are not the latest, but........... Nosler #5 shows Max. load of 59.0 gr. IMR4350 behind 165/168 gr. bullets = 2950 fps. Hodgdon 26th gives 57.0 gr max = 2828 fps @ 48,900 CUP w/IMR or 57.0 gr max = 2818 fps @ 48,600 CUP W H4350 Hodgdon's 2007 Annual Manual gives 59.0 max for H4350 = 2897 fps @ 48,100 CUP and 58.0 max for IMR 4350 = 2903 fps @ 57,800 PSI Use this data as a guideline only, as each rifle is a study unto itself and results will vary from one to the next. It is not uncommon for handloads to fall short of the published velocities shown in the various books. I have also found that factory ammo tends to fall short of their published velocities most of the time. Could be that the manufacturers are using longer barrels than those found on most sporting rifles or rifle barrels w/tighter tolerences than normally found on sporting rifles. I had three different 30-06 barrels from one target barrel mfg. that required a 1.5 gr. cut* in powder charge to avoid a slightly sticky bolt(*below a favorite load that I had used in many different 30-06's w/o any pressure signs). I find the chronograph a most useful tool in load development. Regards, hm 2 Chronicles 7:14: If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land. | |||
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Cartridge : .30-06 Spring. Bullet : .308, 165, NOS BalTip 30165 Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch or 84.84 mm Barrel Length : 22.0 inch or 558.8 mm Powder : Hodgdon H4350 Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge, incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge. CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads ! Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time % % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms -20.0 83 46.80 2197 1768 28790 7751 80.5 1.461 -18.0 85 47.97 2253 1860 30728 8044 82.0 1.422 -16.0 87 49.14 2311 1956 32801 8334 83.5 1.384 -14.0 89 50.31 2368 2055 35020 8620 84.9 1.346 -12.0 91 51.48 2427 2158 37401 8902 86.2 1.308 -10.0 93 52.65 2485 2263 39952 9178 87.6 1.268 -08.0 95 53.82 2545 2372 42692 9447 88.8 1.229 -06.0 97 54.99 2604 2485 45631 9709 90.1 1.191 -04.0 99 56.16 2664 2601 48804 9962 91.2 1.155 -02.0 101 57.33 2725 2720 52216 10205 92.3 1.120 ! Near Maximum ! +00.0 103 58.50 2785 2843 55898 10437 93.4 1.086 ! Near Maximum ! +02.0 106 59.67 2846 2968 59875 10657 94.4 1.052 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! +04.0 108 60.84 2908 3098 64180 10863 95.3 1.021 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! +06.0 110 62.01 2970 3231 68850 11055 96.1 0.989 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! +08.0 112 63.18 3031 3367 73921 11231 96.9 0.959 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! +10.0 114 64.35 3094 3507 79443 11391 97.6 0.930 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value: +Ba 103 58.50 2940 3166 66672 10685 98.4 1.006 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value: -Ba 103 58.50 2594 2466 46169 9726 85.1 1.186 | |||
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Your fine...use the accurate 58.5 grn load Mike Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Just some idle comments.... I have gotten much lower velocities than those shown in the latest Nosler manual when using their loads. This is not surprising, as all rifles are individuals, and what works well in one might be a disaster in another one. For this reason, a load shown as maximum in a manual is indeed only a maximum in the rifle they worked it up in, and no other. So go ahead and work up your load in your rifle. If you can be content with the velocity of the load that shoots most accurately, it is likely that that load will be UNDER maximum in your rifle - maybe not, but probably. And if that load is on the excessive side, you will most likely discover that fact BEFORE you reach that point anyway! "Bitte, trinks du nicht das Wasser. Dahin haben die Kuhen gesheissen." | |||
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Your barrel is 22" and the Nosler manual states their rifle had a 24" barrel. This would account for part of the velocity difference. I agree that a chronograph is a valuable tool. A while back I tested a factory 30-06 180 gr. load and the delivered velocity was 100 FPS less than advertised. The same load from my custom 30-06 gave closer results to advertised speeds, but even a 26" barreled Ruger #1 B didn't quite make it. OK, so it was only 10 FPS below advertised speeds. Sierra is probably the worst offender when it comes to not cheating fair with velocity. In the 30-06, they use a 26" custom barreled Savage 116. Until their last manual, they even used a 29" barrel for the 7x57 Mauser. Did I say they don't cheat fair? While it was only brushed upon lightly, the 30-06 is not loaded to it's full potential not only by the ammo makers, but by the people who do the reloading manuals. It's all in the name of safety and liability. However, the 30-06 is capable of more velocity through careful handloading and in modern rifles attaining a 60to 62K load in safety should not be a problem. A Remington 700 in 30-06 is not made of weaker steel than the same brand rifle in say .300 Win. mag. In fact, due to the smaller case head, the 30-06 delivers less thrust to the bolt than the .300 mag., both loaded to the same pressures. I've often wondered if the dudes doing the load work up for the manuals use proper pressure loads in their own personal 30-06 rifles? I forget where I read this; might have been either HANDLOADER or RIFLE Magazine or in one of his books, but gun writer John Wooters once said he loaded a 150 gr. bullet to 3200 FPS in a custom 30-06 with a 1 in 12" twist 24" barrel using, IIRC, W-760 powder. My custom Mauser has a 1 in 12" 24" barrel, but I've just never had the guts to try and go that far, partly because I don't like 150 gr. bullets in the 30-06, and if I want a bullet to go that fast, I'll use my .300 Win. Mag. Paul B. | |||
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Paul My 1-12 25" 30-05 has gotten 150gr NBT's over the 3200 mark, and IIRC the only Win powder I own is 748. I will say that the bolt lift was "a little stiff" at that level, but I could still do it by hand (side note, that rifle was chamber reamed only, no throating reamer was used). I find that that rifle is consistantly within 10 fps of what Nosler predicts the velocity will be. The chamber, and esp the throat, has a very large effect on the resulting velocity. | |||
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It's well known that even 180 grain bullets can be safely kicked to 2,800'/sec in the 30-06 and in this light your 165 grain bullet is actually in safe limits in all likelyhood. It appears as though you have worked up an excellent accuracy and performance load. About the chronograph.....it's job is to tell you what velocity you're getting and absolutely not to be used to tell you to add more powder.....use it in the context it was designed for and this is to tell you velocity only!!! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Hey metalman29, You are on the right track here, regardless of what the Manuals say. Guide for what? Just as Vapo said, they "tell you velocity only!!!" There are old wives tales that a chronograph can indicate Pressure, but they only have about a 1-in-20k chance of that - totally misleading. Besides one "s"?  (I'm one of the worst spellers, so don't take it personal.)If the Load is fairly accurate, you might try Fine Tuning it by adjusting the Seating Depth a bit. But it looks like it is time to Load some up and go shoot at the various distances you want to take shots to create a Drop Chart specific to your Load and Rifle. (The computer generated Drop Charts are not always accurate enough to Hunt with.) Great Cartridge, best Rifle made and a Bullet which should go shoulder-to-shoulder on Deer, Bears and Hogs.  Good Hunting and clean 1-shot Kills. | |||
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It's unlikely that being "conservative" has anything to do with it. You're thinking that a specific powder represents a fixed baseline when it doesn't at all. Nosler's data was for that particular lot of powder, which won't be the same as yours. Lot to lot density variance with any canister grade propellant can be pretty extreme, which is one of the reasons that loading manuals are only a guide. I've seen 200 fps difference with the same rifle, components, the same charge of two different lots of the same powder on the same day. That's why you have to work back up each time you buy a new lot of powder. Absent a pressure gun, the chronograph is the only instrument you have that can give you a window into the difference, unless you want to depend on tarot cards or ouija boards. ---------------------------------------------- "Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder." | |||
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Here's something else to ponder... As one climbs the ladder with increasing charge weights the corresponding chronograph readings will change in smaller increments. For example, a 1/2 grain increase generally nets a 50f/s increase, but at some point said powder will only net a gain of about 20f/s. It is at this upper point where one reaches the practical limit for a given powder/bullet combination, and usually accuracy starts to decrease. This is a general rule of thumb that holds true for all single-based extruded powders. | |||
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At what pressure does this occur? Does this work for all cartridges? | |||
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Those of us who already know all these things already do differently. But the question originally came from a proclaimed "beginning reloader". Best to give that kind of fellow straight up advice. He will, if he continues, either become conservative and kill lots of game, or become a bit more adventuresome, and kill lots of game. "Make yourselves sheep and the wolves will eat you" G. ned ludd | |||
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I wish I knew the answer to that, but I'm sure this particular phenomena occurs at the maximum average pressures for modern bottle-necked cartridges as listed by the commonly available reloading books. Does this mean pressures are soaring to dangerous levels? No, but it does mean that a particular combination has reached its "sweet spot" and will generally perform at its best if all other components are compatible. Simply put, the pressure/velocity ratio for that particular powder has been met. More pressure will not necessarily equate to more velocity. Having said that, I do know that in order to achieve more velocity one requires a slower burning powder or some other type of chemical composition, like for example, the double-based powders. That is, after all, how we increase velocity: we extend the pressure curve forcing it further down the barrel and we accept the increase in muzzle blast. | |||
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You are 100% correct, and having read metalman's post again I believe he has done everything in a scientifically correct and repeatable manner. He's well on his way to being a careful and conscientious hand loader. | |||
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