Where did the idea of necking a 30-06 down to .277 come from?

It is just about the only .277 caliber out there, and is no doubt just about the best deer caliber ever, just why?

BTW: Neck diameter of 30-06 = .338
.....................................270 = .308

Winchester in 1925?

Winchester designed the cartridge in 1925 for its model 54. The use of a .277 caliber bullet was new and perhaps done to set the American maker apart from the British who were using the 7mm bullet in the .275 Rigby and other .275 designated cartridges.
Sales of the .270 lagged behind the 30-06 until after WWII and then for some reason it grew in popularity...no doubt some success can be attributed to Mr. O'Connor.
Some time around 1927 a fellow named JD Pederson submitted his prototype semi-auto rifle to the Army in his own .276 Pederson caliber (which was really a 7mm bullet)...a much smaller round than the 30-06 the Pederson fired a 120 grain bullet around 2700 fps. The Army found much merit in the new round and the first prototype M1 Garand rifles that the Infantry board recommended for production were 10 shot rifles in .276 Pederson that weighed about 1.5 lbs less than the 8 shot 30-06 prototype. MacArthur was Chief of Staff at the time and nixed the idea for the .276 mainly on logistical concerns...all the Machine guns were 30-06, we had tons of war surplus ammo in the inventory etc.
In any case...looks like the .270 Winchester was an in house effort by the Folks at Winchester.

In an attempt to make a 7m/m, I think Winchester made a mistake in their mathematical conversion from metric to decimal. They did it again in 1958 with the 264.

This is not intended to bash the 270 Winchester, I have one myself that I am very pleased with BUT has it ever occurred to you that the 6.8x57 Mauser did exist by 1907 ?

That cartridge did accommodate a .277 bullet making Winchester's "brand new" invention a bit questionable

Regards

In Frank Barnes "Cartridges of the World," he mentions a 6.8x57 Chinese. He states he has no sample cartridge nor does he have any specs or even know if the designation is correct. Mr Barnes did not list a date of intorduction.

Georg, can you provide more detail as in who made ammo and chambered rifles for the cartridge?

I once visited a rancher with 400,000 acres and 100 pre 64 Win 70s.

He said he was "a .270 man", and did not own a 30-06, but had 30-06 dies, in case he ever had a guest with one.

Being from the suburbs, it was hard for me not to be impressed.

Nimrod,
apparently DWM made ammo for the 6.8x57 as early as 1907 and a 6.8x60 in 1908. Mauser provided the rifles.
I have even seen a picture of a 6.8mm cartridge by DWM, headstamp and all, just cannot possibly find it again.

came accross this site for additional info though:
http://carbinesforcollectors.com/china1.html

Seems very unlikely to me that Winchester accidentally invented a cartridge for exactly the same caliber, odd as the 277 is. But still it is a good one.

quote:

Originally posted by buckshot:
In an attempt to make a 7m/m, I think Winchester made a mistake in their mathematical conversion from metric to decimal. They did it again in 1958 with the 264.

???
The standard 6.5 mm is a .256 bore with a groove of anywhere from .263" to .266". Most 6.5 bullets are sized .264" for everything I'm aware of, including the 6.5 x 54, the 6.5 x 55, 6.5 Carcano, 6.5 Remington Magnum, 6.5 x .284 Norma, .260 Remington, 6.5 x 57, and .264 Winchester. So how did Winchester make a mistake with the .264?

Had big red gone with the .284" as opposed to the .264" there would have never been a 7m/m Remington magnum, and big green might not have survived. Their mistake wasn't mathematical, rather it was theoretical and what they wound up creating was indeed flat shooting, but also a one bullet wounder for big game hunting.

My understanding is that Winchester "designed" the 270 in 1923, but did not actually "introduce" it until 1925 with Mod 54.

I have read (some where) and suspect that Winchester was much more concerned about "domestic" competition in the sub- 30 caliber range than they were concerned about foreign competition. Generally during that time frame Americans did not really flock to European calibers. However, Winchester had witnessed the growth and demise of the Canadian-made 280 Ross (a 7mm) just to the North, which had some adherents and was probably more popular in the US than the 7X57.

Winchester was also concerned with the 256 Newton (really a 6.5-06 with the shoulder set back slightly). They could have brought the Model 54 out in this caliber and forgone the development of the 270 Winchester, but probably viewed this as a bad business decision, that might help prop up the Newton Rifle company by making that ammo more commercially available.

Interestingly, the 270 Win falls between the 256 Newton and the the 280 Ross in both caliber and performance, and gave Winchester something they could call their own.

Barstooler

I wish I could remember the source but I have a distinct memory of an article that attributed the .277 bullet diameter to an earlier Japanese experimental military round. Some of the ballistics were supposed to have influenced Winchester.

quote:

Originally posted by buckshot:
Had big red gone with the .284" as opposed to the .264" there would have never been a 7m/m Remington magnum, and big green might not have survived. Their mistake wasn't mathematical, rather it was theoretical and what they wound up creating was indeed flat shooting, but also a one bullet wounder for big game hunting.

It might well have made sense for Winchester to have simultaneously introduced a full line based on its "short magnum" (as it was then called) case, including a 6.5mm, 7mm, .30, .338, .375, and .458, but that's largely irrelevent to anyone's financial succes.

Simply naming the 7mm with the "Remington" moniker was much less important to Remington's financial success than products like the much cheaper-to-produce 700 and the popular 870 and 1100 shotguns. Winchester put itself out of business by trying to downgrade its model 70 to compete with the 700 and going to Japan for its shotguns rather than coming up with a low-cost design that could be produced in the U. S. like the Rems.

BTW: The .264 Winchester with its high sectional density 140 grain bullet is hardly a "wounder", but rather is extremely effective in terminal ballistic performance.

The truth of the matter is Winchester's reason's for .277" are lost to the passage of time and no one really knows... it is one heck of a cartridge regardless.

quote:

Originally posted by GBF:
Nimrod,
apparently DWM made ammo for the 6.8x57 as early as 1907 and a 6.8x60 in 1908. Mauser provided the rifles.
I have even seen a picture of a 6.8mm cartridge by DWM, headstamp and all, just cannot possibly find it again.

came accross this site for additional info though:
http://carbinesforcollectors.com/china1.html

Seems very unlikely to me that Winchester accidentally invented a cartridge for exactly the same caliber, odd as the 277 is. But still it is a good one.

Interesting article on Chinese rifles.

It's possible the Japanese experimented with a .277, bvut obviously the Chinese did. The 6.8X57mm was a .277" military rifle cartridge dreamed up for possible use by China prior to the fall of the C'hing Dynasty. Who made it originally, its ballistics, and whether it was used by China in any numbers is something I have not been able to determine. But it did exist, almost 20 years before the .270 Winchester.

DWM codes for the 6.8mm cartridges are:

511A 6.8X57 CHINA M07
511B 6.8X60 CHINA M08
511C 6.8X60 CHINA M08
511D 6.8MM CHINA MO8 PRACTICE
511E 6.8MM CHINA M08 PRACTICE

The 6.8mm cartridges were probably not used in any large numbers, they basically died out obviously.
But it was clearly originally made by DWM on the x57 cartridge
Ballistics perhaps in the 6.5x57 to 7x57 class of the time ?

Regards

I could easily have my Asian countries confused. Sounds like it. Either way Winchester may have played a part or witnessed tests and carried that information into the development of the 270 Winchester.