Is there a possibility that the bullet manufacturers will make heavier bullets for the quarter bore? I know that there may be a problem with the twists that are already out there not being able to support a heavier projectile. I was just wondering if this may be a possibility in the future. There may not even be a market for such a bullet but, the options out there seem like they are on the lite side for the bigger 25's. I also know that a person could easily step up to a bigger caliber if they had to have more weight. I just wanted hear some different points of view.

HB, What is it that you may want to shoot with a "quarter bore" that the 117 SIERRA's or the 120 HORNADY'S won't do the deal on????? Certainly not a whitetail!! Or even most mule deer and I wouldn't hesitate on an elk!!!(Now before I get my doo-doo jumped in, if I was on a dedicated elk hunt, I would probably opt for a little more projectile!!!) What are you wanting the 250SAV, 257ROBERTS, 25-06 to do that you can't do with the heavies available now???? Just curious!! GHD

In one,perhaps, insane moment I gave a beautiful 25-06 IMP away just because I felt I could not get bullets of adequate weight for it. A bullet of Barnes' Original construction around 137gr. would be spectacular in a fast 25. I doubt if it ever happens again. roger

GHD, I don't have a particular application in mind. I was kicking this around with some buddies & we just thought that rounds like the 25-06 improved or the 257Wby could possibly benefit from a heavier bullet than what is available. I was just wondering if anyone else had ever thought the same thing or if maybe someone might have heard something along those line. No real reason, just thinking aloud I guess.
I would not cull a 25 because of it but it seems like you should be able to get a heavier bullet. I agree with bartsche that a 137 or 140 just seems like it would be something to check out. There may even be one or two out there that I am not aware of.

You might approach Hawk Bullets with your request. They make bullets similar to the Barnes Originals, and use soft copper jackets over pure lead cores. The reputation of these bullets isn't the best when driven to high speeds, but the high SD bullets you seek needn't be blazers. Currently, Hawk goes down to 6.5, but they make SD .328 bullets in that caliber. They will do custom bullets. Barnes Originals are (were?) available down to .243 at an SD of .278.

You can also cast "partition" style bullets and paper patch them. These are done in two pours, with a hard alloy for the base.

quote:

I would not cull a 25 because of it but it seems like you should be able to get a heavier bullet. I agree with bartsche that a 137 or 140 just seems like it would be something to check out. There may even be one or two out there that I am not aware of.

hvy barrel,

Richard Graves has some offerings you might be interested in, but you may have to build another gun to shoot them. He has 130, 142 and 156 gr. for the 25. The 142 would likely require a 7 or 8 twist. Take a look: wwww.wildcatbullets.com

Jim

That's a nice selection of bullets at wildcatbullets, pdhntr1. I hadn't heard of them.

I will note that Hawk offers "rounded tip" bullets, kind of cross between RN and spitzer, and I don't think their ogive is quite so long as the ULD. In short, Hawk might offer a heavy bullet which would stabilize in standard twists. I ran a few calculations, and I think a std. .25-06 barrel could stabilize a traditional RN profile for 150 gn, and maybe even Hawk's RT.

hvy barrel, I have been using Richard Graves "heavy .257 cal" Wildcat bullets in my custom 25/06 AI (Sako L61R action, Shilen 24 inch 1 in 10 twist barrel, and Fajen laminated stock)

The 130 grain Bonded Core Flat Base Hollow Point (1.222 in) gave sub 0.5 moa accuracy at velocities ranging from 2850 fps up to 3158 fps, with the smallest group measuring 0.185 moa using 65.0 grains H870.

I chronographed the 142 grain ULD (1.360 in) and reached 3,050 fps (61.0 grains Re25), but was not surprised that they keyholed into the target.

I did not chronograph the 156 grain ULD (1.550 in), but will do so after my next order arrives (due sometime this week). Initial testing has shown that this bullet will need a 1 in 7.5 or 1 in 7 twist barrel to stabilise it.

I recently ordered a Krieger 27 inch blank barrel, with number 3 contour, with a 1 in 7 twist, that should end up at about 26 inches and .630 at the muzzle.

For this next project, I am looking seriously at using the 7mm Dakota case necked down to .257 without any other change.

The 7mm Dakota case has a .545 rim, and head, .531 at the shoulder, 30 degree shoulder angle, and holds 93 grains of ball powder, which when necked down to .257 would be about 88 - 90 grains. This is just 3 - 5 grains more than the .257 Weatherby, but has no belt. Another attraction, is that Lapua are evidently going to begin production of the Dakota cases within the next 2 months.

Also in my next order from Richard Graves are some 125 grain ULD (1.268 in), which I requested him to make after the 130 grain BCFBHP worked so well, and the 142 failed to stabilise. I have read several posts on another forum from those who have tested the 125 ULD bullet, and it stabilised and shot accurately in their 25/06 1 in 10 twist barrels at velocities of around 2950 fps, so it should work well in my 25/06 AI.

I can thoroughly recommend that you try Richard Graves Wildcat Bullets. Although he makes a range of bullet weights in various calibres, he really specialises in heavy for calibre weights that nobody else seems to want to make. As an example, some of the heavy bullets he makes are:
172- up to 45 grains
224 - currently includes 80, 85, 100, and 107
257 - 125, 130, 142, 156.
277 - 169
284 - 200
338 - 300, 350

Also in the next order are some 100 grain .224 ULD's which I will use in my next .224 Clark. Hope the above information helps. Brian.

A concern of heavier bullets in a quarter bore is the bullet length. Its gonna take up more case space for sure.

Thanks for all of the response. It just seemed to me that there should be some heavier bullets available for a 25. Just wondering if anyone else thought the same. Thanks for the info on the makers that do build them. Brian let me know how the 100gr 22 works in the 224 Clark. that sounds interesting.

On a related tangent, apparently the 6mm US Navy was loaded with 135gr bullets when it was introduced (1893). What twist did they use back then?

Seems if you can make a 135gr work in a 6mm, then 140gr (or more) should be able to work in the 25's.

Washougal Chris

hvy barrel, I probably wont have the .224 Clark operating until March 06, as the Krieger .224 cal, 1 in 6.5 twist barrel is not due to arrive here in Oz until the end of January. In the meantime I have to find a Rem700 LA to use as the donor action for this project.

Walker, I agree the long 25 cal bullets do create problems if used in cases with a length of 2.600 inches or more. These cases make it impossible to keep the OAL within the 3.660 inch length of a Rem700 LA magazine without seating the bullets deeply into the case.

This is one of the reasons why I am seriously looking at the 2.500 inch 7mm Dakota case for necking down to .257. Using this case, I can seat the 142 grain ULD to the base of the neck and end up with an OAL of 3.529 inches, which still leaves room for chasing the lands as throat erosion progresses.

However, many are solving this magazine length problem by using the Wyatt centre feed extended magazine box, which increases the permitted OAL length by about .300 inches to about 3.960 inches. Brian.

Like you said, most 25 cal rifles have 1-10" twists, and probably won't shoot bullets over 120 gr. too well. I believe Barnes used to make a 125 gr. Original soft point

Step up to 6.5mm if you want heavier bullets, them 140's really fly well

brianw, a friend of mine bulit a 224 clark on a model 70 action several years ago, but he also built several rifles at that time. The 224 kind of got lost among his other projects & I did not hear how it fared. I have since lost contact with him. The information he learned prior to building this rifle sounded amazing. I am suprised that I have not heard more about this round since I have been on the forum. I wish you luck with the project. Keep us posted.

quote:

Originally posted by hvy barrel:
Is there a possibility that the bullet manufacturers will make heavier bullets for the quarter bore?

I think that's why the 6.5 MM rounds have become so popular. You can load a 160 in the 6.5 X 55 and it's only .007 larger bullet.

hvy barrel, My first .224 Clark was built in 1988, on a Rem 700 SA, with Shilen 25.5 inch 1 in 10 twist barrel.

After about 500 rounds, I discovered that the choice of a Short Action Rem 700 action was incorrect, as the magazine length of 2.800 inches was to short to allow you to chase the lands as throat erosion occured. Luckily the Sierra 69 grain HPBT would still give reasonable accuracy when seated .050 to .150 inches from the lands.

The 1/10 twist rate was chosen as the heaviest .224 bullets available in "Oz" at the time were the 68 grain Hornady and 69 grain Sierra. I regretted that choice of twist about 8 years later when the 75 Amax and 80 grain Matchking were introduced.

The 224 Clark (22/257 Roberts imp) had a case capacity of 63.8 grains, and achieved 3930 fps with the 69 grain Sierra, 3,825 with the 75 Amax, and about 3,730 fps with the 80 grain MatchKing.

Based on the velocities achieved in that rifle, I predict that in the 26 inch 1 in 6.5 twist Krieger barrel, the 90 grain Sierra MK should achieve about 3,500 - 3550, the 100 grain Wildcat ULD about 3250 - 3300 fps, and the 107 grain Wildcat ULD about 3150 - 3200 fps.

Recent chrono testing of the Wildcat 100 grain ULD in a 22/6mm AI(40) by a Montana gunsmith achieved 3240 fps (56.0 grains AA8700) with this bullet weight.

I will be happy to comply with your request and post details of my testing. Brian.

I'm glad the .25-bore 130s from Wildcat shot well in a 1-10 twist. I had been corresponding with him by e-mail re ordering a thousand or so for myself, but he didn't think they would stabilize in my rifle which also has a 1-10 twist.

I know that my first .25-06 rifle used to shoot the 130 gr. Hi-Precision round-nosed .25s VERY accurately, but Hi-Precision had the audacity to go out of busines without my permission about 40 years ago.

Anyway, guess I'll have to contact Wildcat again and get some to try out. (My current .25 rifles are a No. 1-V .25-06 and a .257 WBY Mag with a .300 WBY mag box, so I don't have to worry too much about OAL for a magazine.)


P.S.: Though very accurate, the Sierra 117-gr.
bullets proved in my experience to be about the poorest hunting bullet I've ever seen for jump-shooting deer. Inadequate penetration/excessive expansion for anything except directly from the side, between-the-ribs chest shots.