Read this on LRH, author, "Jeff in TX." Good read. Another opinion on barrel break in and the use of moly on bullets. If what is written about moly is true, I'll never use it---it concurs and confirms (if true) what I have believed about moly coated bullets all along, lots of moly in the first inch or so of barrel, but not much after that:

Barrel Break-in and the use of Moly Coated Bullets

Before I begin, this post has been on many boards throughout the years and has been modified from time to time as I uncover more information, so you may have seen an older version at some time or another. What prompted me to research this subject was the fact that I destroyed a brand new Shilen Stainless Steel match barrel in less than 400 rounds shooting moly coated bullets and following some not so good advice to break the barrel in with the shoot and clean every round method.

I’ve spent a lot of time on this board, the BR board and other shooting boards listening to members and what works for them. Conclusion, what works for some, doesn’t work for others. Being an engineer, when it’s broke or you don’t understand something you go back to specs and/or you analyze the problem or process with equipment capable of offering hard facts and not assumptions. So that’s what I did on this subject.

Do any of you know exactly what happens when you pull the trigger and your gun goes bang and the bullet goes down and out the barrel? Chances are you aren’t even close and the same thing goes for barrel break-in, the use of moly coated bullets and fire-lapping a barrel. BTW, what I thought and what actually happens astounded me. I talked with 4 metallurgist and 8 barrel manufactures four of which really understood internal ballistics (Rock Creek, McMillan, Hart and Shilen), one hall of frame benchrest shooter/gun builder on the subject. These individuals have the knowledge, means and equipment to back up there claims and not just offers their opinions. From an engineering point of view, they all said and agreed to pretty much the same thing.

I also talked with some well known barrel builders who build great barrels, but in the big picture didn’t know squat about what really happens when the trigger gets pulled and internal ballistics, this was scary because they build great barrels.

First, Gale McMillan was right in his statement, “This barrel break-in processes keep us in businessâ€!

This shoot and clean, shoot and clean every round or few rounds break-in process only damages your brand new match grade or factory barrel. Think of a car engine for a moment. Why do we use oil in the engine? To prevent metal-to-metal contact and reduce friction between two metal surfaces. A metal-to-metal contact will create friction and allow the two baring surfaces to sheer away layers metal creating rough porous surfaces which will only further the damage as time goes on. Your barrel is no different from the engine and the same results will happen if you clean so well you take it back down to a bare steel surface.

Mike Rock at Rock Creek barrels and Speedy Gonzales of SSG guns gave me the most detailed explanations on barrels and ballistics. Mike has his degree in metallurgy; he was also the chief ballistics engineer for the Army for many years at the Aberdeen Proving grounds. Also Stan Rivenbark was one of the top ballistic engineers for Raytheon before he retired in the late 70’s and also has a degree in metallurgy. These folks understand internal and external ballistics better than most of us ever hope to. I also talked with two local metallurgists here in North TX. I confirmed my findings with each person to see if they agreed or disagreed. Conclusion, they all agreed with each other’s assessments.

When Mike worked at Aberdeen proving grounds, the Army used high speed bore videos with mirrors, thermal imaging and computers to analyze any and everything that happens when the firing pin hits the primer and the round goes off. BTW this is the part where what you thought happens meets what really happens when you pull the trigger. When the primer ignites there is enough pressure to move the bullet forward into the lands. The bullet then stops. As the primer ignites the powder, more pressure builds moving the bullet forward where it can stop again. Once there is enough pressure from the round going off, the bullet is moved down out the barrel. All of this happens in nanoseconds (billionths of a second). Your bullet actually starts and stops at least twice and sometimes three times before it leaves the barrel. This is a proven fact.

If you clean every round or every few rounds during your barrel break-in process or clean your rifle so well after shooting that you take it down to the bare metal, you’ve created a metal-to-metal contact surface for the next time you shoot the gun. So what’s the problem with this you ask? Just like your car engine, metal-to-metal contact will create friction and sheer away layers of metal from each surface. So if your bullet is starting and stopping two or three times as it leaves the barrel, that’s two or three places for metal-to-metal contact to happen as well as the rest of your bore.

According to Mike Rock and the other barrel manufactures agreed, all you need to avoid this metal-to-metal contact is a good burnish in the barrel. A good burnish in the barrel will eliminate any metal-to-metal contact, thus preventing premature damage to a barrel. More on this later. The use of JB’s and Flitz and products such as those can and will clean so well that it will take you down to a bare metal-to-metal contact for the next time you pull the trigger. For all intents and purposes, JB’s and Flitz type products are not the most ideal products for cleaning your rifle, but they do serve a purpose and have there place when needed.

Yes, I know what some of you are thinking, copper is a very soft gilding metal how’s it possible for it to damage a steel barrel. Just as water is now used to cut steel, add enough pressure and water cuts through steel like a hot knife through butter. Add 50,000 + PSI’s of pressure from your round going off and that those soft copper jacketed bullets can easily sheer layers of steel out of your barrel with a metal-to-metal contact, easily damaging and creating more rough spots in your barrel for fouling to occur.

Rough spots in barrels will easily sheer away and collect copper fouling. Depending on the severity and how rough that spot is, it may be smoothed out over time by shooting a lot of rounds, or it may need to be lapped out. This is the problem faced with factory barrels as they may have some rough spots to start out with from the machining process. Most match grade barrels are hand-lapped and most if not all rough spots and machining marks have been removed. A lot of barrels foul like hell and still shoot great, probably not benchrest accurate, but a lot will shoot in the under a 1 MOA or even .5 moa or better. So the real question is what the hell is cleaning every round or every other round going to do to improve this? Nothing, but give you a new bare metal-to-metal contact surface to start with again and a lot of wasted time and effort.

A lot of barrel manufactures such as Rock Creek, Hart and Shilen at the time of this original writing will all void your barrel warranty if you shoot moly bullets and for good reason. This is not to say that moly is necessarily bad for a barrel, but it is when applied to bullets. There is no way possible to coat a bore with moly bullets.

The bullet contact surface in the barrel is only so big. It's like trying to wax your entire car with just a tinny dab of wax and starting over at the exact same place each time you apply more wax to applicator. You just can't cover the entire car, but you get a nice wax build up at the starting point. Same thing with shooting moly coated bullets. You get a nice moly build up right in the throat area and not much moly beyond that.

When your round goes off, moly comes off the contact surface of the bullet in the throat area of the rifle and is bonded to the barrel do to the excessive heat and pressure. Were not talking coated or adhered to, we’re talking bonded to. In addition, add carbon fouling and some of the copper jacket from the bullet to the mix. Follow this up with another round and you’ve now embedded the carbon fouling and copper jacket between layers of bonded moly. This is the beginning of the black moly ring, which ruins countless barrels and is so hard; it can hardly be scraped off with a screwdrivers corner edge. This is what happened to a brand new Shilen SS select match barrel I had to have replaced with less than 400 rounds through it. I was shocked when I looked through Speedy Gonzalez’s $3000.00 video borescope at the damage to my new Shilen SS select match barrel. Speedy wasn’t amazed at all, he sees it day in and day out with barrels that have less than 50 rounds of moly coated bullets through them.

For those of you who think you’ll clean the black moly ring out of your barrel with a solvent, you’re kidding yourself. Name one gun cleaning solvent that will dissolve Molybdenum Disulfide (MoS2). You’re not going to find one. I understand some cleaning products will remove loose moly from the barrel, but I’m unaware of any product that will dissolve bonded on Molybdenum Disulfide from a barrel and not destroy the barrel steel in the process. Some moly users say they brush it out when they clean their rifles. Without looking through a borescope, how would you know? Doug Shilen at Shilen barrels cut the throat section out of my ruined barrel to see the specific damage once he determined it was toast. He could barely scrape the black moly ring out with the sharp edge of a screwdriver on the barrel I ruined. I could have scrubbed with a bronze brush for days on end and I wouldn’t have touched it.

Fire-lapping is one way of removing rough spots and smoothing out a barrel, if you can’t have your barrel hand lapped. But just like using moly coated bullets, lapping compound coated bullets have there own built in problems. As with moly coated bullets, the bullet contact surface to the barrel is very small. Most of the lapping compound on the bullets will be focused in the throat area. Your throat will get a great polish job, but you might lengthen the throat the in the process, but it can help to remove rough spots in barrels.

When I talked to Mike Rock about my new barrel and the barrel break-in process, this is what he had to say. He first hand laps each barrel with a lead lap. He then uses two products from Sentry Solutions, a product called Smooth Coat, which is an alcohol and moly based product. He applies wet patches of Smooth Coats until the bore is good and saturated and lets it sit until the alcohol evaporates. The barrel now has loose moly in it. Next he uses a product called BP-2000, which is a very fine moly powder. Applied to a patch wrapped around a bore brush, he makes a hundred passes or so through the barrel very rapidly before having to rest. He repeats this process with fresh patches containing the moly powder a few more times. What he is doing is burnishing the barrel surface with moly and filling in any fine micro lines left by the hand lapping. He then uses a couple of clean patches to knock out any remaining moly left in the bore.

With the barrel burnished with moly, this will prevent any metal-to-metal contact during the barrel break in process. My instructions for barrel break-in were quite simple. Shoot 20 rounds (non-moly bullets) with no cleaning, as this will further burnish the barrel. Done! Now shoot and clean using your regular regiment of cleaning and if you have to use JB’s or flitz type products, go very easy with them, or better yet avoid them. Never clean down to bare metal.

He said most of the cleaning products do a great job, don’t be afraid to use a brush and go easy on the ammonia-based products for removing copper fouling. Basically don’t let the ammonia-based products remain in the barrel for long lengths of time.

Well that’s the long a skinny from the engineering point of view on the subject. If you're ever in doubt about the real condition of your barrel, take it someone who has a bore scope and even better if someone has a bore scope that can magnify the view. You may be surprised at what is really going on in your barrel.

I'm sure this will spark a debate here and there, but that's good thing. The more information we have, the better off we'll be.

Doc, Thanks for posting this informative article. Barrel condition and breakin are two of my more popular interest areas. I remember reading some of this, but finally got through the entire article. I just have to try a Mike Rock barrel, most probably in .264 (.260 Rem)

Same here. I'm on the anal side of keeping up with rifle cleaning but I don't want to harm my barrels either.

I may have to give a Rock barrel a try myself.

Thanks Doc,

In the past 4 mos. I've purchased 8 new rifles.

When I read about the barrel break-in procedures one is recommended to go through I just couldn't come to grips with it. I read alot of stuff in support of its behalf but I decided to be unconventional.

I clean my barrels really good, just not down to punishing the metal with a bore brush 10,000 times.

Thanks, for the thorough research & the claims, substantiated with proof!

Late-Bloomer

There are a number of anomalies in this article and this prompts me to view it with suspicion.

quote:

A lot of barrel manufactures such as Rock Creek, Hart and Shilen at the time of this original writing will all void your barrel warranty if you shoot moly bullets

From the FAQ section of the Shilen website :
"Can I use Moly coated bullets to break-in my barrel?
Some bullet and barrel makers say that the best way to break in a barrel that is to be used with moly bullets is to break it in with moly coated bullets. Others say to use uncoated bullets to break the barrel in, then start using coated bullets. We hear from a tremendous amount of top-notch shooters and gunsmiths and they all have their own opinions on this subject (as you already know). In compiling this wealth of information, we have come to this conclusion: There is no BEST way. Some barrels seem to break-in very quickly with coated bullets. Some seem to take longer. We've had shooters tell us that if a barrel didn't seem to want to really "come-in" with coated bullets, a few uncoated bullets down the barrel actually helped the initial break-in. Then they went back to the coated bullets with good results. Our recommendation is to load and tune the rifle with jacketed, uncoated bullets. Then try the moly coated ones."

Interesting read Doc, much obliged for your posting it.

Looks like the author is now down on Moly and yet one of his sources, Mike Rock, uses it. Seems that would be a bit confusing for some readers.

I'll still use Moly and I'll still clean the way I have for over 5-decades now.

Good Hunting and clean 1-shot Kills.

Doc, you always have some interesting stuff for us! I will call a little BS on something in that piece though, at least in my feeble mind, I think it said--or seemed to say--there wouldn't be any moly further than a couple of inches down the bore. I've seen with a bore scope that this ain't true. I don't know that it matters, but it ain't true after shooting quite a few moly bullets down a few of my barrels anyway.

As to disolving moly, I don't know, but it comes out of a barrel OK if I want it to. This is through visual confirmation with a borescope, so maybe there is still some there that just isn't visible. As to high pressure copper jackets stripping away your barrels steel, I certainly suppose that is reality, I would just call it wear, I do know a lot of benchrest guys that clean to bare metal all the time and have many thousands of rounds through their barrels with these barrels continuing to provide an extreme level of accuracy, which this guys post seems to say wouldn't be practical.

However you break in your barrel, it is damn sure something that makes a difference IME. You can talk to a lot of folks much more knowledgeable than me about what goes on in the barrel, but I know that the plasma effect and the changing metal matrix in the tube affects the way a barrel performs. One of my favorite smiths is absolutely fanatical about it. The rifles he has broken in for me, shoot measurably better than ones that haven't been, maybe that is what this fellow called 'getting a good burnish in the barrel'.

Another thing that jumped out, is the info on just getting the throat polished out, I think he was specifically talking about firelapping then. Hell this is the most important part of breaking in a barrel in my opinion. Getting out the reamer marks that are directly across the path of bullet travel is the main thing! This is one thing specifically high end barrel makers are doing when they lap their barrels.

The impenetrable black crust moly ring is an interesting thing. I recently read on 6mm BR that a lady who was a real cleaning nut, and a consisitenly winning shooter, had a ring of this sort develop in her barrel to the extent that chambering a round became difficult. It had no affect on her accuracy. When the guy writing that article helped her ID this with the use of a bore scope, they cleaned it right out, and then everything was good to go. I would be really interested to hear of some folks here that know about whether or not you can really get moly out of your barrel, I sure think you can.......

Hot core uses a lot of moly, HC, what is your thought about getting moly out if you wanted to????

One other thing, about the bullet stopping and starting, maybe so but, I guess there is a point where you have to define what 'stopping' really is, when you are running forward does your forward progress stop for a nanosecond when you plant on to your lead foot?? Heck I don't know, but I think a definition of motion might be appropriate with that diatribe. I do question the 'when your primer ignites there is enough pressure that your bullet moves forward' well, I call BS on this. I have a friend that had 6 cartridges that he didn't get a powder charge into. He fired them with primer only, and thought he was getting a misfire, as with his hearing protection, he couldn't even hear the detonation of the primer. These cartridges did not change in OAL one bit, and these rounds had bullets seated WAY short of the lands, so I don't think I'm buying the primer pressure moves your bullet thing, except possibly that the pressure would be higher just due to the volume occupied in the case, if the case WAS charged, despite the fact that the powder had not ignited yet, then maybe I would have to retract my BS call!

Neat post Doc!

Lots of in that article. Especially the car engine analogy. (Don't get me wrong, I'm not for the shoot n' clean breakin style.) Piston rings are meant to rub metal to metal. Oil control rings are, in fact, designed to scrape oil from the cylinder walls so as not to migrate into the combustion chamber, get burned along with the fuel\air charge and create pollution. Is there wear? Certainly. But after how many up and down cycles? Same thing with a rifle barrel. It too will eventually wear from many bullets scraping their way down the bore. But if there were no friction, there would be no pressure to move the bullet in the first place.

Gerard, I guess the only safety net for the author was he did write "at the time of this writing," .....they will void warranty with use of moly.

Now, when he wrote it, I don't know. Moreover, websites can change. But, I don't know why Shilen would do a flip flop either. One definite way to find out is email him, which is exactly what I plan on doing, since 2 of my rifles wear barrels stamped with their name.

Regardless, I break my barrels in but it doesn't take any 100 shots to do it either. My hart took a lot longer than I thought it would and cleaning it was a pain too.

My PacNor and Broughton were, IMO, the easiest, with the Liljas coming in second.

What I can also tell you is that I did speak with Doug Shilen in 2002 about the whole barrel break in procedure. If I recall, his statement to me started with: "if it makes you feel better, go ahead. Lots of shooters swear by it, some say it's a waste of time. You decide for yourself. I personally have a rifle here that has NEVER been cleaned, it looks like a copper pipe inside and still shoots .5MOA."

I have mixed emotions on moly anyway. When I first started reading up on it some years ago, I thought, man, what a great idea, till you start hearing and reading all of the opinions on cleaning the stuff out.

I can see both sides of the coin on how far down the barrel moly will be found. In one sense, I can't imagine it being on the lands throughout the bore, but I also can't see how it WOULDN'T be in the grooves for the entire length. Moly is just a coating. The land depth cutting/impressing into the bearing surface of the bullet is deeper than the moly coating. I've seen plenty of failsafe bullets recovered from game or ballistic gel or wet newspapers where you can see the black/copper rifling. So, that moly disulfide went somewhere, and I figure it is in the initial portion of the lands.

I've got a rifle I wouldn't mind shooting some moly coated bullets in to give them a try, but I'd need some pointers from you all that use it. I've never done it, so, what do you recommend? From start to finish, procedure, etc.?

Glad I posted the article. Maybe I should have also put a disclaimer that in no way was it MY opinion/view! I know you all probably realized that anyway. I've just had mixed emotions on moly, but I will always break in a barrel. Krieger had a nice explanation on their website about it. While Michelle, at Hart barrels stated to me on the phone that Hart barrels need no break in.

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:
But if there were no friction, there would be no pressure to move the bullet in the first place.

Well, isn't there still friction even if you leave layer after layer of powder/copper fouling? If that layer continues to build, that will tighten the bore, which induces pressure also, isn't that correct?

As for the motor analogy, I think that was a poor choice too. Why do so many bench rest shooter want to clean the bejesus out of their bores so often?

But, back to the motor analogy, it is yet another reason why I prefer synthetic lubricants, but that is another story.

Doc, I shoot a little benchrest and the reason i clean ,"well" is to have a clean barrel. HAHA..
really, I have used moly for a while and even burned out my 243AI barrel. the throat moved .070" about round count 750..including fireforming.
It is a bench gun and i shot it a lot and in one match I think I shot too many sighters and thats that.
with the moly my groups were consistent, upto as many a couple hundred rounds with out clenaing.
I am gussing pressures were lower because the same load with bare bullets showed pressure signs at lower velocies.
I have talked to a couple other shooters that do not use moly and the throats in there barrels were starting to move at about 200 to 300 rounds.
does it work? I think so. It all depends " not the ones you wear"
moly does not break down under pressure or heat. Sure there is friction. It took 40 to 60 rounds of moly coated bullets through my rifle before it started to settle down and shoot good groups. preping the barrel is what happens. the barrel will only hold so much moly and the remainder get wiped out each time you fire a round.
I had little or no fouling with moly. Thats why i could shoot so many rounds without cleaning. one or two dry patches just to remove a little carbon and thats it. I had no issue with copper. it just wasn't present even with hot loads.
If you were to shoot a hand full of moly bullet then a hand full of naked bullets you will never get to any consistency. I am sure there would be both copper and carbon fouling if thats the case..
To start a rifle on moly you need to clean the barrel very good make sure there is no copper fouling at all. I used a mop dippen in moly powder and swabed the barrel from both ends to lay down a coating.
It does'nt take much.
work up a load using moly do not take you best load and think it will be good enough.
on my 243 it liked a bit of bullet jump to the lands about .020" ..
Coat your bullets, I use super fine moly. cost more but works.
Dave

I'm also in Ohio. May I ask where you are in Ohio? You can PM if you wish.

Northeast near Middlefield, Warren, Area.

quote:

Originally posted by Fish30114:
...Hot core uses a lot of moly, HC, what is your thought about getting moly out if you wanted to???? ...

Just begin shooting it with non-coated Bullets and clean as you should - everytime the rifle goes outside. I've never wanted it "out" of mine, but that will work, and some cleaners "appear" to remove it.
---

Molybdenum is a foliated mineral, which means it is Layered or Stratified. This results in extremely low "Shear Strength" which allows the layers to separate easily as they slide along against each other through the Bore.

I can understand "How" the author got the impression that all the Moly is left in the first couple of inches of the Bore - the Bore was just not Prepared Properly. Just as Mike Rock told him, in order for it to work properly, the Moly must be "Burnished" into the Bore prior to shooting the first shot.

You do not need the "Carrier" that Mr. Rock mentioned, just a snug fitting "Paper Patch", Moly Powder, a Jag and copious amounts of Elbow Grease.

Put fresh batteries in your Bore Light and clean the Bore(pre-Moly) until it glistens like a Hall of Mirrors when viewed from the Muzzle. Let it set a few days and look again to make sure no Copper has leached back on top of the Bore. If it is there, it isn't clean. Once it is clean, Burnish in the Moly. When you have it done correctly, stick the Light in the Chamber and when you look in the Muzzle, it will now be a dull gray along the entire length - groves and Lands. I use a touch of Moly Grease at this point along with a dab of extrra MOS2 sprinkled on and give it a few strokes. The "Grease" protects the Bore from Moisture. (Ignoring this step eventually results in Pitted Bores whether you use Moly or not.) Then a couple of Dry Patches to remove any excess Lube to prevent it from acting as a Bore Obstruction.
---

When ever you read an article that has results 180deg from what you have experienced first-hand, then it normally means there is some "Key Item" or "Significant Step" missing in the process. The trick is figuring out what is missing. In most cases, the author gave it his best effort, but just didn't understand why leaving out a step made any difference. In the article Doc gave us to read, Mike Rock told the author what needed to be done(Burnish in the Moly) and for whatever reason, it wasn't done. If it had, Moly would have been found the full length of the Bore.

As to the "Moly Ring" he mentioned being difficult to remove. Obviously I did not see the "Ring" he was talking about, but I suspect it was really a Carbon Ring. These first came to my attention decades ago when shooting light for caliber Bullets with H870 in various Belted Magnums. There was no Moly on those Bullets, but there sure was a hard Carbon Ring.

Not speaking as an Expert, but speaking from first-hand experience, I believe the Moly can occasionally lower the Pressure enough to cause the same thing to happen with some Medium Buring Powders.

Just noticed one(Carbon Ring) in the Throat of a 308Win two days ago. Bon Ami and about any liquid Bore Cleaner used to make a Paste will cut it right out when scrubbed with a Brass Brush. Wrap a Patch around the Brush, coat the Patch with the Paste and give a series of full length scrubs until the Ring is gone. Of course, this ends up "cleaning the Bore", and I realize a lot of Experts are against such radical treatment of a Bore(aka cleaning).

Good Hunting and clean 1-shot Kills.

quote:

a lot of Experts are against such radical treatment of a Bore(aka cleaning).

Classic!

Thanks for the feeedback HC, interestingly, I have never burnished the moly into my bore over and above shooting bullets with moly on them, and then pushing a patch or two through, usually with a little Tetra gun lube on 'em, and the couple of rigs I shoot coated bullets in have a coating all the way down the tube.....

You might find Varmint Al's moly comments and corrosion tests interesting.

Scroll way down to near the bottom.

Varmint Al's Corrosion Test

It gets to be something like Ford vs Chevy, Republican vs Democrat.

What you believe affects what you see.

There are more important things than moly vs non Moly:
1) Do you believe moly will help?
2) How well lapped is the bore?
3) Do you prefer fighting Copper or fighting Moly?
4) Do you have the discipline to follow a Moly regime?


These questions are more important than the subtle advantages and disadvantages of moly vs non moly, so discussion is difficult.

I am a moly believer, and I prefer to get an unfired, factory lapped barrel, and burnish it with Moly Bore Creame before first firing. That way I don't get any Copper under the Moly.


I have been doing 257 Roberts Ackley Improved with moly only for 7 years.

.223 for 5 years.

7mm mag, 308, 30-06, 300 Win mag for 2 years.

270 for a month.

And I just ordered a 6mmBR reamer. It will be for a rifle that is moly only.

You say that the bullet starting and stopping 2 or 3 times is a proven fact. Where did you find this proof and just what is it? I also do not believe that it is possible to fire a rifle bullet down a barrel and not have metal to metal contact, maybe so, but sounds a bit far out to me. Thanks for any information that may clear this up for me.

b beyer, the rifling cut the bullet so there must be contact/friction.

also we have had a bullet get jamed in the rifling with only a primer behind it

From Varmint Al's site:

"I have done some reading of the scientific literature on Moly and there is repeated evidence that Molybdenum Disulfide plus water (in the air) plus oxygen (also in the air) will yield a bit of sulfuric acid, which is not good on either your bullets or your barrel. I would like to see some more experimenting along the lines of the above."

This happens when low grade moly powder is used and the impurities that are left in the bore, some of which are oxidised, attracts moisture.

I have a rifle in the vault at the moment that was last used on the 15th, 16, and 17th of July last year. I fired 34 shots on a springbuck cull hunt with it and did not touch the bore after the last shot. The outside of the rifle was wiped down and I had a look at the bore every two weeks or so. In November last year I forgot about it and a couple of weeks ago I took it out, wondering if there will be a nasty surprise. However, the bore is still good for more shots and there is no rust. I will clean it thoroughly before the next hunt, because the rifle starts opening the group at around 40 shots. We are in Port Elizabeth, on the coast and we have had the wettest season in 25 years, since the hunt. I shoot a 40gr monometal bullet at 4700fps on cull hunts. I would not even consider doing what I did with this rifle if it was shot with uncoated bullets.

This is not an endorsement for not cleaning your rifle after shooting moly coated bullets. I did this as an experiment, to see what would happen. Obviously the grade of moly on the bullets I used was not a problem.

quote:

Originally posted by Fish:
...a little Tetra gun lube on 'em,

Hey Don, How do you like the "smell" of the Tetra?
---

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:
From Varmint Al's site:

"I have done some reading of the scientific literature on Moly and there is repeated evidence that Molybdenum Disulfide plus water (in the air) plus oxygen (also in the air) will yield a bit of sulfuric acid, which is not good on either your bullets or your barrel. I would like to see some more experimenting along the lines of the above."....

Hey Gerard, That was an excellent Test you did because of your proximity to the ocean. But, if where you happen to have the rifle stored is in a controlled environment, the Relative Humidity is normally held down by the air conditioning or heating. And I suspect you know Pits start very small and can be difficult to see until they are of a large size.

I saw a reference to Moly and Acid about 15-18 years ago. I'd never noticed or felt any Pits in any of my rifles, but it still had me VERY concerned. So, I did as much "tracing back" as I could on the source of the info and found it coming from a fellow selling a product in competition with Moly. (Huuumm!)

It took multiple requests to get the salesman to admit that if the Bore is "properly cleaned and Lubed after use", as it always shold be, then the problem did not exist. Well Duuuuuh! The cleaning and Lubing(grease or oil) always protects the Bore from the effects of Moisture.

But, if the correct set of conditions exist - no cleaning or Lubing - then a person should not be surprised when the Pits eventually get large enough to see and feel, whether Moly is used or not.
---

Everytime I see the Moly and Acid concern, I'd be remiss if I didn't toss in about the Battery Effect for non-Moly users. If a person will research Batteries, they will find that "two dissimilar Metals combined with Moisture has the potential(electrical potential) to create a Battery".

To simplify this and put it in rifle context, the Moisture allows Metal to be removed (electrically transfered) from the Barrel Steel to ANY Copper left in the Bore. The process is also similar to Plating or Electro Deposit, except it requires no outside power source.

Just as with the "Moly/Acid" concern, the Battery found in a dirty Bore will be eliminated by proper cleaning and Lubing. It is AMAZING to me how many folks don't know about this and leave their firearms dirty. But, many also believe "cleaning a Bore" will destroy it.

And many believe a Bore Snake "cleans" a Bore.
---

I'll continue to use Moly until something better comes along. But as "tnekkcc" mentioned, it does require a bit of discipline. It probably isn't worth it for anyone who only shoots a few hundred shots a year.

Good Hunting and clean(Moly Coated) 1-shot Kills.

Hot Core,
Our shop is airconditioned but we only run the cooling if the temperature goes above 23 Centigrade. So for all the time up to about mid November we had natural atmosphere. The rifles are stored in a walk in vault with normal vents for air circulation. I still have not cleaned it and, if it stays the way it is now, I will leave it until we are ready to go out again with this rifle in July.

Hey Gerard, Best of luck with the rifle.
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Hey ireload2, The link you provided to Varmit Al's is a really good place for all the Beginners to check out.

It has been awhile since I was at his site, so I clicked on your link myself. Also saw the Hot Links to his Moly info. And within VA's Moly post is a Hot Link to another site that has the Moly Product mentioned by Mike Rock. Well, surrrprise-SURRRPRISE(as Gomer used to say), there are the same old "Moly Powder is trash, but our Moly Product is great folks."

They have changed their claims a bit over the years and do enough flim-flamming(aka Marketing jargon) of the facts to mislead folks into thinking that most Moly Powder on the market is trash.

Noticed they "claim" their Product is now some kind of magical universal firearm lubricant/protectant which can be used both inside and out. "Just do it inside a 99cent shoe box from Wal-Mart.", as they say.

Anyone care to speculate on how a "White Glove Inspection" would go with that "magical universal firearm lubricant/protectant", supposedly containing the only good Moly for firearms.

Anyway, I can't thank you enough for reminding me about Varmint Al's, he does have a lot of great info. I've got to call a few buddies and tell them I've re-found the folks who sell that "magical universal firearm lubricant/protectant".

Good Hunting and clean 1-shot Kills.

al, claims his moly is a low grade moly?
I konw some shooters who use lockease to prep there barrels and clame its great?
accuracy improves fouling is reduced and all that.
I have never tried it myself but who knows.
one shooter I know pours oil down the barrel until it runs out the muzzle. he thinks shootin a bullet down a barrel with out the oil slick will cause the barrel to wear out quicker.
go figure.
Dave

HC, I wondered if it was just me, but the Tetra is a bit of a 'unique' smell....not vanilla and cinnamon for sure.....

Originally posted by HiVelosity

quote:

one shooter I know pours oil down the barrel until it runs out the muzzle.

ARGHHHHHHH!

Looks like that much "Oil" in the Bore would act as an obstruction. Any Rookies that get this far in the discussion, ALWAYS run a couple of Dry Patches as a follow-up. The resistance to Compression is what allows Oil Based Hydraulics to function.
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Hey Don, Since the Moly seems to have run it's course in this thread - Thanks again Doc - I'll share a Tetra story with you.

I can't remember when I was too young to be without a pocket knife of some sort. Carry two all the time now.

One is a Buck I've carried for at least 30 years. Happened to think about it when a guy asked to "borrow" it. I was "on edge" the entire time he had it in his hands.

So I decided it was time to get something less expensive and with no concern for letting someone else use it. Moseying through a Sporting Goods department I spotted the Mother of all El Cheapo Lock Back knives. Some kind of hard molded handle with a stainless, half serrated blade. $1.00 including TAX and I sure wouldn't mind letting someone use it.

Removed the blister pack and checked the edge. Huuummm, a couple of whets and it was fine for hard use. Blade was nice an snug side-to-side(which I like), but also slightly snug opening. Decided to give it a drop of oil. I'd been moving a few things around in the Reloading Room and what should I spot but the Tetra Gun Oil. Gave it a drop or two, worked the blade a bit and I believe the phone rang. So, I layed it down and forgot about it.

The next day I'm in there and spot the El Cheapo. Pick it up, open the bl begin to open the blade and I hear a LOUD CRACK POP, then something hit the hardwood floor.

As I looked closer, I could now "smell" the Tetra and it reminded me of the fragrant aroma of a Varmint that has been blasted and left laying in the sun for a few days. I'd forgotten about Tetras "aroma".

Anyway, upon a detailed inspection of the El Cheapo, the Chinese had decided to make the "Lock Hinge Pin"(not the Blade Hinge Pin) out of some kind of Plastic. Not sure what kind, but when the Tetra hit it, it must have slightly melted it or the handle and when the volatiles dried - it effectively glued the Lock Hinge in place.

So, the El Cheapo lasted about 18 hours - of course with proper care.

If I leave a moly barrel in a situation where the outside of the barrel will start to rust, the inside will turn red.

This is the reaction that everyone is worried about, but I just clean it out and accuracy is not affected. I have done it a few times with a light varmint taper chrome moly Lothar Walther .257 barrel that I shoot 257 75 gr Vmax molly bullets at up to 3900 fps, but usually at 3600 fps.

Has anyone, ever, had a barrel loose accuracy from moly caused corrosion?

I'm way out of my depth here, and thanks to Doc
for posting those comments to read.

Got some doubts/thoughts and questions though, even if they have been covered before, as for searching, I have that male crono syndrome (lazyness) that stops me from using Moly just for starters.

So I can't see the significance of the bullet stoping (maybe) to barrel wear??

If bare copper bullets can rip off bits of rough steel, so what's moly going to do leave it rough??
I think I'll just worry about copper and carbon fouling without adding moly to the mix.

Most agree barrels wear out at the chamber end from HEAT, not bullet friction?? Some apparently rechamber and keep shooting the old barrel quite successfully??

Barrel break-in? Well from what I understand, a lot of shooters think it means barrel lapping by shooting and stuff around for maybe 200 rounds scrubbing and rubbing after each shot etc. My readings from some barrel makers is to have it done in only a few shots at one shot intervals, then to a few more goes at 3 to 5 shots, and when serious copper fouling stops ( In my minor experence 5 to 10 shots) start shooting normaly. (In my case within about 30 shots at the end of a shoot.)

What I'm wondering is, if you don't clean back to metal regularly, how much of a problem (if any) is electrolysis between barrel steel and copper layers??

Heck, where did I get the impression that copper was a form of lubricant? don't they coat some .22rf ammo with a copper wash or something instead of grease and wax??

One of the troubles here is following the "expert" barrel makers who can be in a world of their own, and hot-shot bench-rest shooters that would bless their rifles and ammo if they thought it would help, compared to the average Joe who just wants to do a reasonable upkeep to an average barrel.

1) Smooth Steel:

The problem with Copper is that it rubs off onto smooth steel.

The next bullet hits that copper and gets deformed.

The 30-06 that was used to shoot Martin Luther King would not produce two bullet in a row that matched each other for the FBI crime lab.
I suspect the rifle was badly Copper fouled and inaccurate.

Moly will only work if all the Copper is cleaned out BEFORE the moly is laid down.

Then if there is moly on the smooth steel and moly on the Copper bullet, the Copper does not rub off onto the steel.

2) Rough Steel:

Moly does not work on rough steel. The steel cuts right through the moly and right through the Copper, and collects Copper to deform the next bullet.