HELP!!! I purchased 185 Gr Core-Lokt bullets for my 8x57 and no book I have has data. Can any of you Mauser Heads give me a hand?

If you go to Hodgdon's website and compare the data difference between cup and core bullets 175 VS 180 you will notice that the data is pretty close.....as long as you work up, you can use starting loads for the 180 grain data to shoot the 185 grain loads.

Ignore the data for the TSX and other mono bullets....check the difference using the powder you intend to use.....back up one grain may be a fair rough rule of thumb.....

Also note that the pressure data shows about 47,000 CUP as a max.....one grain isn't going to put you over 50,000 at that rate....

Thanks Pal, I had just about come to the same idea, but I am a lazy old fart and like all lazy old farts I try to take the lazy old fart way out. LOL, I think!!!

Using a Yugo M24/47 in excellent condition with a M43 Oehler attached to measure chamber pressure I worked up to 49 gr of IMR4895 before I was pushing the same pressure as most milsurp loads. However, I found 47.5 gr IMR4895 in WW cases with WLR primers at 3.177 OAL to be a very good load at 2635 fps with 57,000 psi(M43).

I suggest you consider the condition of your Mauser and if in excellent condition then consider 48 gr of IMR4895 to be a max load. Start at 40 gr and work up in 1/2 gr increments watching for the usual pressure signs in your rifle with yout componants. Use a chronograph also if you can. When you approach 2550 fps you are getting close so use prudence after that.

I've found the 185 gr Remington 8mm bullet to be a good yeoman bullet. Accuracy will run 1 1/2 - 2 moa out of a rifle that gives 1 moa with 175 Sierra's. It is a very effective bullet at 2600 fps in BG up through elk. Back before "the rush" when you could still get good deals on Remington bullets I used a lot of these 185 Remingtons. Seems now that Remington or the dealers want as much for them as for other bullets.

Larry Gibson

Hey Steve, I'd strongly encourage you to buy a box of Factory Ammo and use it to Benchmark the Pressure with the PRE portion of CHE & PRE. It is the only way possible to know you have Pressure equivalent to, yet not exceeding the Factory Ammo.

If you have any questions about the PRE, just PM me since it seems to disturbe a lot of folks that are not able to understand it.

Best of luck to you.

Because of the wide variety and condition of the various milsup mausers, wouldn't the store bought ammo be pretty anemic? Perhaps a Chrony along with your case head measurements might be better.

Steve

I see Hot Core showed up. Perhaps his time would be better spent explaining all his elk kills on the other thread and how the 270 Winchester won't kill them. None the less I suggest you take a look at the 170 gr bullet data in Lyman's #48 Reloading Handbook to see if my measured pressure information with the 185 gr Remington and pressures are out of line.

Hot Core's suggestion to use factory ammo and CHE/PRE will get you no where because they do not load for the 185 gr bullet. Further the pressures of Winchester and Remington's factory ammo are so anemic you will get no CHE measurement and little if any PRE measurement to be of any value. I know because I was using both methods, CHE & PRE long before the invention of the internet and Hot Core's concept of them with the 8x57 cartridge.

BTW, Hot Core's instructions for CHE & PRE are incorrect and will give false pressure indications if you follow his instructions. You need to use new unfired cases not once fired or reloaded cases. If you are in the pressure area where CHE is occuring (well above the recommended PSI for the 8x57, even the European CIP standards) then reusing/reloading the case only compunds the the measurement and work hardens the cases head which gives false measurements. Multiple firings also compound the expansion and work harden the expansion ring. If you are FL sizing you are also getting strtch in the case web area which makes it thinner and gives even a wider varience of expansion. The proper methed of both CHE and PRE were well addressed before Hot Core began spouting his incorrect method here.

CHE has been proven unreliable, not only by me and numerous others including most ballistic labs. PRE can be reliable in developing loads that give close to equal peak preassures of factory ammo only ifnew unfired cases of the same lot that the factory cases used for the PRE measurement are used. If other cases are used it is comparable to using a different tarage table for another lot of CUP copper pellets than the tarage table that came with them. Using reloaded cases for either CHE or PRE is tatamount to hammering out the CUP copper pellet and reusing it.

PRE is also only reliable if you are using a powder of the same, or close to the same, burning rate and a bullet with in +/- 10 gr. The reason is, as with CUP measurement, PRE only measures the peak pressure. You can get that same PRE measurement with Bullseye powder as with 4895 in the 8x57. But we all know (Hot Core perhaps being the exception) that Bullseye is not a powder we want to use.

CHE, if there is a measurement and there won't be with factory Rem and Win 8x57 ammo as they are only loaded to 37 - 40,000 psi, also indicates the peak pressure. However since there isn't a tarage table with those cases you've no idea what the pressure really is. If there was CHE with the use of a factory load and your load is equal or less in CHE then you can pretty safely assume you are within industry standards. However, you can not say that so much CHE equals so much pressure, regardless of what Hot Core says. A tarage table for that particular lot of brass would be necessary and none exists with loaded ammuntion.

Back to your question Steve, just work up the loads as I suggested using normal loading techniques and you'll be pleasantly surprised at the performance of those 185 gr Remingtons and your 8x57 rifle.

Let us know your results.

Larry Gibson

Geez, can't you dumb fucks make a simple post w/o getting involved in a bunch of petty, personal bullshit that really undermines and confuses any value that may be in your post.
I'm sure Steve was really impressed what little knowledge he could seperate with your character assination. It added a lot of credence to your post. Made you come off as a real knowledgeable reloader.
Why don't the lot of you grow up?

The only load that makes sense to give you ; 185gn. bullet 47.5gn. acc2520 avg. 2500 fps.The rest of my data for the most part is with surplus powders ; probably of no interest to you. roger

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Hey Steve, I'd strongly encourage you to buy a box of Factory Ammo and use it to Benchmark the Pressure with the PRE portion of CHE & PRE. It is the only way possible to know you have Pressure equivalent to, yet not exceeding the Factory Ammo.

If you have any questions about the PRE, just PM me since it seems to disturbe a lot of folks that are not able to understand it.

Best of luck to you.

LOL which ammo senior core?

I don't run the 8mm Mauser very hot at all.. in fact it looks like a big 223 round to me..

so powder that works well in the 223 works well in the 8mm Mauser also...

I tend to like RL 7, IMR 4198, SR 4759, RL 10, H 322, Benchmark...just to name a few..

I look at the 8 mm Mausers I own and shoot as 250 yd rifles for my needs.. and load accordingly...

the above powders recoil less than loads using more powder... and I see no need for them...

owning 06s, 338 Mags, etc.. I shoot the Mauser round for enjoyment..same as with my 30/40 Krag for instance..

Ok, here is what I came up with, sence I already had the 185 Gr corlokt which I bought by mistake, I took data from 170-200 gr in the books that I have, noted the highs and lows. I used Varget and started out @40 Gr. I ended up with 45.5 Gr as a simi-hot load. It has a good kick but does not flatten the primer to what looks like most, spent factory cases that I have from other calibers. I have not run any threw my Crony yet but will re-post when I can.

Thanks to all!!

Oh, I forgot to also say that I used a mixture of XANAX and LORTAB while hashing this out. I bought a set of Lee Neck Size Dies and they had data for the 187 Gr Jacketed Bullet. VEC SP7 and VEC TU5000. I think I will not buy the wrong bullet again, wich will prevent this from being an issue in the future/ However the mixture of XANAX and Lortab will be a bench mark procudure!!!

I used to load 8mm Mauser with 180 gn Nosler Ballistic Tips over 49.0 grains of IMR 4064 with a CCI-200 primer in Winchester cases. This load was hot and above book.

My friend loads 43.5 gn of IMR 4064.

In my opinion IMR 4064 is the powder for an 8mm Mauser. Experiment by starting at 43.5 gns.

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
LOL which ammo senior core?

Any of the 8x57 JS Mauser ammo should do fine to establish a Benchmark.

If it is unavailable in Factory Ammo(?) then using the CHE portion would be better if it is a Modern Rifle designed for high Pressure. Otherwise, the best bet is to simply stick with Loads shown in a Manual.

Here is a thread where CHE totally destroyed any credability the non-calibrated, guessed at dimensions M43 ever had. I simply refer to it as the "GLOATING Thread", since it decisively proved what I've said for many years - only a Total FOOL would waste money on a M43.

Best of luck to you all.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
LOL which ammo senior core?

Any of the 8x57 JS Mauser ammo should do fine to establish a Benchmark.

If it is unavailable in Factory Ammo(?) then using the CHE portion would be better if it is a Modern Rifle designed for high Pressure. Otherwise, the best bet is to simply stick with Loads shown in a Manual.

Here is a thread where CHE totally destroyed any credability the non-calibrated, guessed at dimensions M43 ever had. I simply refer to it as the "GLOATING Thread", since it decisively proved what I've said for many years - only a Total FOOL would waste money on a M43.

Best of luck to you all.

Oh no here we go again on that CHE sh$t!!!!!!!

Yes, Hot Core can't comprehend that the set up was flawed in the test he mentions which is why the poster with the M43 deleted his posts. He can't comprehend his CHE method has been proven unreliable but then that goes with his comprehension dysfunction.

Larry Gibson

quote:

Originally posted by TEANCUM:

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
LOL which ammo senior core?

Any of the 8x57 JS Mauser ammo should do fine to establish a Benchmark.

If it is unavailable in Factory Ammo(?) then using the CHE portion would be better if it is a Modern Rifle designed for high Pressure. Otherwise, the best bet is to simply stick with Loads shown in a Manual.

Here is a thread where CHE totally destroyed any credability the non-calibrated, guessed at dimensions M43 ever had. I simply refer to it as the "GLOATING Thread", since it decisively proved what I've said for many years - only a Total FOOL would waste money on a M43.

Best of luck to you all.

Oh no here we go again on that CHE sh$t!!!!!!!

I actually wonder if Hot Bore catalogs all of his postings, and reads them constantly, so he can pull out posts from years before in a vain attempt to try and prove his points...

re reading his posts on the links he provides... it still has the same undertones on each...

someone who doesn't think Hot Bore is some sort of Reloading Guru, is labeled as clueless and some other choice derogatory remarks..

guys that I have seen post knowledge based on many years of hands on experience...and folks I am confident who know what they are talking about..

the underlying point also, is that it isn't a matter of scientific evidence.. it is a matter of ego for Hot Bore..

somehow he has convinced himself, that all of us know nothing at all...and in comparison to his vast wealth of knowledge, we are all "clueless"....

well any psychologist will tell you... we hate the traits in others that we hate most within ourselves.. and since Hot Bore harps on "Clueless".. what does that tell ya?




so should I post some 8mm Mauser and Blue Dot data, just to light his fuse?

That's the problem with Hot Core, he comes on threads and spouts his usual ignoring facts.

The loads I worked up were within data for 170 and 200 gr bullets. The old Handloader's Guide for Smokeless Powders put out by IMR gives only 150 and 170 gr loads for the 8x57. They list load data for the 185 in the 8mm Rem Magnum cartridge. The 185 gr Remington 8mm bullet is designed for the 8mm Rem Magnum. For it to perform well across a reasonable hunting range it must be driven to European/German pressures in the 8x57. The loads I gave are within those specs not only by data from the M43 but also from data in the Lyman manual. Again these are the type of facts that Hot Core ignores. To bad he has to ruin so many threads with his inane comments.

Larry Gibson

I loaded 125gr Hornady JSP/JHP (both discontinued), 150gr Sierra Pro Hunter, 200gr Accubond and 200gr SMK for 8x57 using Win brass, CCI 200 primer, and Varget powder. Varget likes to run full, close to it, or slightly compressed.

I saw 48gr was max for some load data for 200gr bullet and Mike Venturino (my favorite handloading writer) ran 48gr of Varget in his WWII load (Can't remember if it was 196gr or 200gr). 48gr of Varget and 200gr bullets gave me about 2550fps.

My loads are for a sporterized k98. The 150gr Sierra's were most accurate, followed by the 200gr Accubond.

H4895 showed the highest velocities in all my load data for lighter bullets, and IMR 4350 was faster for 200gr bullets. So Varget is pretty good compromise for all bullets.

.323 220gr bullets are harder and made for 8mm Remington Magnum. Woodleigh makes a 250gr .323 bullet.

I load the 185gr Remington using the same Varget load that I use with the 200gr Nosler Accubond. My wife uses them for practice as from her pre-WWII small ring sporter both loads hit to nearly the same POA/POI. She got one shot kills on bush pig, impala and gemsbok last year with the Accubonds so the practice must have helped.

I've been working with the Hornady 195gr in my 8x57. I've tried H4895, IMR4895, Varget, and others - I forget all of them since my notes are not right here - but my last loads were with H380. All the powders I've tested were good, but the groups really came together with the H380, and CCI 250 primers, winchester brass. It works out to be a nice, slightly compressed load.
My rifle is a CZ 550, so it's not mil-surp, if that matters.
KB

Hey folks, it looks like the crack I made about Lortab and xanax was taken seriously by someone that will remain nameless for now. Let me just say they are high up on the food chain and they were not impressed or happy with my comment. Let me just say that I in no way, advocate the use of drugs while shooting or loading. May my wife leave me if I am lying!!!

Steve

Your methodology was correct for your choice of powder, Varget. BTW, how was the accuracy in your Mauser?

Larry Gibson

quote:

Following and duplicating a successful persons actions is worth ten thousand hard headed mistakes

Talk about words of wisdom.. simple and to the point...

I bought my Mauser from a friend (Dealer) and it looked brand new. It come from Mitchels Mausers. There was, is no evidence that it had ever beem fired so I treated it as a new barrel rifle. I fired 10 shots, open sights at a 8" steel plate @ 100 Yards and hit it every time. I have not realy had time to go and try it out again"Its just to hot in Bama for me right now". I am amazed at how well it shoots. All in all I think I have fired it 10 while working up the load that I listed and then I took it to the range and fired it 10 more times. I think I got a real sweet deal. I mean this rifle looks brand new wood, steel, bolt and everything.

Your methodology was correct for your choice of powder, Varget. BTW, how was the accuracy in your Mauser?

Larry Gibson[/QUOTE]

quote:

Originally posted by steve box:
Hey folks, it looks like the crack I made about Lortab and xanax was taken seriously by someone that will remain nameless for now. Let me just say they are high up on the food chain and they were not impressed or happy with my comment. Let me just say that I in no way, advocate the use of drugs while shooting or loading. May my wife leave me if I am lying!!!

Where is Foster Brooks when you need him??


Back to the question--

My sporter liked 49.2 gr of Varget as its sweet spot with the 185

Measuring case head expansion will tell you how long that particular lot of cases will last with loads of the pressure in the cases being measured. It tells you nothing about the actual pressure of the load. Case heads vary considerably in hardness, so measuring their expansion only tells you when you've exceeded the sustainable pressure for that particular lot of cases.

Further, using American factory loaded 8x57 as a pressure standard is farcical. Because American manufacturers perceived that there were rifles like the German 88 Commission rifle floating around AND there were European sporters with .318" rather than .323" barrels out there, they decided to limit the 8x57 loads to pressures that either of those categories could handle. This decision to underload the 8x57 disregards the fact that no one in his right mind would actually shoot an 88 Commission rifle, and that the extra pressure generated by the undersized bore of .318" sporters is negligible.

You'll find that surplus 8x57 military ammunition generates about the same pressure as surplus .30-06 and other similar rounds.

As to the strength of ex-military '98 Mausers, I am always amused when people are hesitant to use full-pressure loads in them when they are in their orgininal state, but let some gunsmith build a "custom" rifle using the same old action and the belief is that now "the sky's the limit" since it has been rebarreled to something like 6.5-06 Imp.

At any rate, measuring the case heads of fired factory ammunition to establish a benchmark for pressure is about as meaningful as measuring Hot Core's ever-flaccid penis to establish a standard for rubbers.

WOW!!!