Had a chance to go out and do some testing this morning.

First of all: FINDING MY THEORY OF 40 TO 60% OF CASE MAX CAPACITY SHOULD BE SAFE IS NOT HOLDING TRUE. THEREFORE IT IS TIME TO SCRAP IT.

Working up from 40% of max case capacity seems to be a good reference tho.

Max Case Capacity Using Winchester Brass in 300 Win Mag was 70 grains of Blue Dot.

CCI Large Rifle primers were used.

Bullet used was a Rem 150 grain SP

Test rifle was a Browning A Bolt ONE with a 26 inch barrel.

Weather was cloudy, temp about 45 degrees.

150 grain results:
1. 28 grs: 2383 fps
2. 29 grs: 2392 fps
3. 30 grs: 2441 fps

4. 31 grs: 2487 fps
5. 32 grs: 2526 fps
6. 33 grs: 2560 fps
7. 34 grs: 2634 fps ( Max recommendation, extracted easily no problems with primer etc.) NOTE this is 48 % of max capacity.

8 35 grs: 2688: ( hard extraction, extractor marks on brass, flattened primer)
9. 36 grs: 2753 fps ( very hard extraction, only did this for the sake of test results)

Brass from shot 8 and 9 were scrapped.

The recoil was still very mild, 300 Savage range up to the 34 grains. The 28 grain load would be very very appropriate for a youth shooter and would definitely be a good 200 yd deer load. Recoil seemed light than even a 243 with a 100 grain typical load.



165 grain results:

All Same as Above for equipment except Used a 165 grain Rem SP bullet.

1. 28 grs: 2221 fps
2. 29 gr: 2236 fps
3. 30 grs: 2331 fps ( very appropriate for youth, and 200 yd deer load)
4, 31 grs: 2350 fps
5. 32 grs: 2383 fps
6. 33 grs: 2412 fps

7. 34 grs: 2486 fps
8. 35 grs: 2530 fps ( Max recommendation, 50 % of max load)

9. 36 grs: 2583 fps ( stuck bolt, hard extraction, flattened primer, case scrapped)
10. 37 grs: 2632 fps ( case extracted easily, flattened primer, scrapped case).

IN Conclusion:

40% seems to be a good work up point. When velocity got over 2400 fps in both the 30/06 and the 300 Win Mag, it was time to start looking for pressure signs.

Anomolies noticed:
1. Less than 50% of max case was obtained with a 150 grain bullet but made it to 50% of max case with a 165 grain bullet ( 35 grains of Blue Dot), before it had hard extraction problems.

2. With the 165 grain bullet, 36 grains caused hard extraction problems, whereas with 37 grains of powder, the case extracted easily. I assume this is something pertaining to those two individual pieces of brass. However it shows that there are first, no absolutes in handloading. Secondly it adds credence to the old "work up" warning seen so often, yet so often ignored.

Another pattern that I am observing using big game cartridges in the 30 cal and 338 cal range so far , is that 2400 fps should be the maximum goal if desiring to use Blue Dot in reduced loads.

Each time the cases come out very very clean, even on the neck, not showing any powder blowback burn marks.

These tests are also done with Large Rifle Primers and NOT MAG PRIMERS.

I Will do a separate test for the 180 grain bullets. If anyone is interested in the 125s let me know. If I have time, I will be happy to do those, but I question whether a lot of people use them. However I do see an application for youth deer hunting with a 300 Mag blue dot load and a 125 grain Ballistic tip.

NOt that you need a premium bullet, but I have seen excellent results with Ballistic Tips in these reduced velocities. I have taken a 600 lb plus cow elk with a 165 grain Ballistic tip at a distance of 175 yds, and she was going at a full speed run at the time.. Went 40 yds and was down for the count. The bullet took out both lungs, destroyed the upper liver, and was against the hide on the oft side. So they work definitely

Cheers and Good shooting
seafire

Seafire,
I don't own a 300WM, probably never will... but in my mind the essence of a "reduced load" is lighter projectiles at moderate velocity. I'll place a vote for testing the 125gr projectiles, I feel that at somewhere around 2400fps they'd be a nice deer and varminting load. Another interesting test may be a 170gr FP at 2400 fps, essentially a "hotted up" 30/30 load. Also noticed that in Richard Lee's 2nd edition of the Lee manual, Blue Dot is mentioned in the 45/70, I'll have to try that one and then see what Blue Dot will do in the 458WM.
Cheers...
Con

Fantastic. Thanks for these results. And in response to the other post, yes these weights are very useful. I'll probably end up with Sierras anyway just because they're easier to get for me.

The speeds you're getting are lower than I estimated, which is great. Perhaps a 125gr Ballistic Tip would be useful. And if you can keep speeds down to what you've got now, the 135gr Sierra SP 30cal handgun bullet or the 130gr Hornady SP would be very useful as well. These three are my only suggestions for additional testing.

For my own purposes, the 180gr stuff is not as attractive in reduced loads. In full-power loads I have not shot anything less than 165gr and that was an X-bullet.

I hope that in the future I can prove to be helpful to you in some way. What you've got here is a shining example of public service. I see this as a great way to introduce non shooters to firearms. I'll be downloading this and the 30-06 and 223 data for future use.

Gonzo,

My pleasure. Thanks for the kudos. I like to see this info get some usefulness. If you want a little more velocity, I have also got more experience with IMR 4198 in these cartridges which will give faster Muzzle Velocities than Blue Dot, with a little more recoil, but still nothing compared to the regular loads.

Feel free to email me anytime. Especially if it is to help out young shooters.

Cheers and Good shooting
Seafire

Thanks Con

Yeah I was looking at doing the 125 bullets and the 170 grain FN for the 30/30 velocity. There is a place for a bolt action 30/30 equivalent.

IN your 7.62 x 54R I am sure you will see an application.

If you get down and do it keep us posted. I am sure if I do it first in the 30/06 that should be info you can consult in your testing.

cheers and good shooting down under mate.
Seafire

"9. 36 grs: 2583 fps ( stuck bolt, hard extraction, flattened primer, case scrapped)
10. 37 grs: 2632 fps ( case extracted easily, flattened primer, scrapped case)."

How many rounds did you fire at each loading?

Initial testing is two rounds each to chronograph it. Then I usually will take it to the range to check for the accuracy.

I will also load and reload the cases that are just under the stuck bolt producing charge, a total of 5 times.

I see no reason to try the charge that gave me a stuck case several times, as the entire focus is a reduced load for reduced recoil while maintaining accuracy. Once it is sticking cases, that is a good place to stop, and checking out the cases several times with slightly less powder charges is also a good thing to do.

Hope this answers your questions Nitro

cheers and good shooting
seafire

Very nicely done and even better reporting. Thanks a bunch. Very useful info as I have a lot of surplus Blue Dot on hand.



Would like to enter my second on the request for your testing 135 gr. Sierra bullets. If the 40%-50% range holds for them, I'll try it in the 7.5x53 MAS cartridge and see how that works out. The 135 Sierra is very close in weight to the 138 gr, bullets in the boxer-primed Privi Partisan ammo (Yugo) I currently use in that cartridge.



Thanks again.



AC

Seafire, I've been reading about your use of BDot with great interest, but I am wondering why you chose it rather than Unique, 2400, XMP 5744 or H/IMR 4198 for reduced loads. As a dedicated cast bullet shooter, I'd like to learn more about your choice. ...Maven

Paul;

Several reasons. However the main one in larger calibers is that in chronographing the loads Blue Dot has had the least standard deviation of any powder I have chronographed. So it is consistent. I have also shot the other other powders you mention in reduced loads, and none give the accuracy that I have been getting with Blue Dot.

Second place for accuracy would have to go to 2400, and then IMR 4198. In fact tho, I use a lot of IMR & Hodgdon 4198 before I rambled into Blue Dot. I use a lot of field loads with IMR 4198, in the 30/06 and 338/06 plus the 300 Win Mag and 338 Win Mag. I also use a lot of it, for varmint shooting in my 22/250s ( 25 grains and a 50 to 60 grain bullet) gives velocity in the 3400 fps and has one hole accuracy.

Blue Dot is something that I have been extensively testing lately and I am posting the results. I am sure a lot of people are sick of hearing Blue Dot with this, and Blue Dot with that.
However, their are enough " Inquiring Minds" so I put it on.
At least it is more useful than Mortie and His SQUILL tails.

Blue Dot also takes up a lot of room and is easier to avoid a double charge. It also burns much cleaner and does not cover the cases in Soot like Unique seems to do with whatever I test it in.

Hope that answers your questions and makes some sort of minor sense.

cheers and Good shooting,
seafire

Marius;

Please forgive me, I was trying to understand your questions.

I do believe where you mention "accur" is that you meant occur instead of trying to mean accurate?

I also compliment your attempt at English, as my attempt at your native language would be non existant. The only foreign language I have spoken is German, and that was so long ago, I can only pronounce words without remembering the meaning a lot of times. Sorry to say I use to be fluent in it.

I do not use a filler in the loads. The nature of the Blue Dot is powder is that it is bulky and seems to be able to forego the need for fillers. A regular Large Rifle primer will ignite it no matter what its position in the case. I have even tested it with a Large Pistol Primer, with the same results.

At 21 grains I am at 40% of max case capacity anyway. Recoil is very minimal, comparable to a 22/250 in a Varmint weight rifle. It has proven very accurate in my rifles. I usually test the accuracy at 50 yds ( a meter is 3 inches more than a yard, so 50 meters is close enough). I always feel at 50 meters it shows how accurate the RIFLE is, once that is proven, then at 100 meters or yards it shows how accurate the shooter and his abilities are.

A bullet with a muzzle velocity at 2000 fps would be a good 150 to 175 yd load for deer size game. At 2250 fps, it would be a good 200 to 225 yd /meter load. Blue Dot with light to medium commonly used bullets in a round ( minus 22 caliber varmint rounds) seems to like the max velocity to be about 2400 fps. When load developing and one hits that threshold, it is time to stop, or work up further only in a VERY CAREFUL mode. 2400 fps will stretch your range out to about 250 meters/yds. Beyond that, it depends on how good your knowledge of your scope's ability is, whether you understand trajectories etc.

I hope this answers your questions, please do not hesitate to send me an email back if it did not.

Cheers and Good shooting
Seafire

Seafire, Your answers make perfect sense to me as I've got low standard deviations from Green Dot (and other pistol powders) too. The conventional wisdom about cast bullet shooting is to avoid fast powders since they cause the projectile to accelerate too quickly and thus "trip" over the rifling. If that's so, I haven't experienced it, but then I don't push my CB's faster than 1,800 fps. Besides, C.E. Harris has long recommended 13gr. of Red Dot or 16gr. of 2400 as "universal" cast bullet powders/charges. Also, I have to agree that Blue Dot is bulky and clean burning. Thanks for the reply and keep up the good work! ...Maven

This is a really cool, and synchronus post!

After seeing some data by C.E. Harris for 308 using Red dot, using his 600 yard zero at 200, I was thinking about trying something similar in 300WSM.

300WM is pretty similar to 300WSM in capacity, and your data gives some idea as what to expect, as far as a general concept for a different cartridge of similar capacity.

I would be really interested in your accuracy results, when you get further along. I have seen your posts on some loads in 223, and it sounds like the results are pretty good there.

Travis F.

travis,

I do not have a Short Mag, but I am theorizing that because of its short fat shape that it may actually be more efficient than the 300 Mag case.

I am noticing that I can get more power percentage into a short fat case ( like the 243 ) than I can with a longer cylinderal case like the 30/06, before I have higher pressure results.

It still seems like that 2400 fps is going to be a max velocity with a lot of Blue Dot loads, with the mid range bullet weights in a given cartridge.

If you try those loads as a reference and please work up, your results in the short mag case would be interesting, so please share them.

IN terms of flexibility, I think if one downloads to this level a Short Mag case might offer more flexibility than a standard case. ( this from a guy who thinks we have enough cartridge cases out there) I think a 270 Win Short mag might offer more flexibility than a 270 for downloading, or a 300 WSM offer more flexibility than a 30/06.
This is just theory at this point, so defenders of one side or the other, this is not an invite for an argument. Thanks


Cheers and Good shooting
seafire