'Everything seems simple when you know what you're doing'. I've heard this all my life (and believe it). The other adage is that 'unless you can explain it in layman's terms, you really don't understand it'.

Here are my dumb questions of the day.

1) An arbor press looks like a drill press (without the drill) to me. What makes these the top of the pile? How do they work? How do
hand dies' differ from threaded dies (in function)and what makes them so great?
I jumped into reloading app 18 months ago strictly to develop loads for my .308W. I never heard of an arbor press or hand dies until I started visiting the forums. I hope someone feels they have time to help me understand this area of handloading.

2) Posted before with minimal response and I still don't get it. Why are the bullet seating dies (back to threaded stuff now) for .308 different than the ones for 30-06?

Some folks say 'buy it and try it' but due to the economy there are tens of thousands of folks in my field out of work, including me. Plus I have a debilitating back injury so funds are very, very tight and the more info I can absorb from the experience base in these forums the better.

Thanks in advance and I do appreciate each and every response I get to these posts. I try to help where I can but I'm just barely past the 'see spot run' part of the learning curve so I'm asking more questions than I can answer. Now that you've gotten way too much unnecessary information please advise on the above questions, at your convenience...

Many Thanks,
XWind

[ 01-28-2003, 11:16: Message edited by: XWind ]

Its sad if you don�t get a response on your questions, I can only give it a try since I have no experience with hand dies/arbor presses. I think the idea about hand dies is that they have very close tolerances and that one of the ways of achieving this is to avoid the coarse threads in a regular press. When you thread a die into an ordinary press it may or may not be straight in relation to the ram/shellholder. In the hand dies I think the idea is that the case fit inside like a hand in a glove and that the motion needed to resize goes in a totally straight line. These dies size the necks only. The arbor press is just like close tolerance drill press used with (unthreaded) hand dies instead of a rubber mallet. Again the idea, I think, is that the press only closes the dies in a straight line without canting it and potentially size/seat out of line. These are "bench rest only" kind of tools, it is probably impossible to measure any gain from this kind of painstaking care during sizing/seating if you load for a regular hunting rifle (a non-bench rest rifle).

The reason different cartridges need different seating dies is, well, that they are different! A seating die supports the case during seating and aligns the case with the bullet as it enters the case mouth. The closer the tolerances the better the result. If the case is very "loose" in the chamber the bullet can be seated out of line with the case, wich hurts accuracy and can actually crumple the case/case mouth. You probably can use a seater for a different caliber if the case diameter is the same, but ideally the seater should be "tight" enough to only allow cases of the exact same diameter as the cartridge it is intended for to enter. Only very few cartridges have the exact same shoulder diameter.

Also most seaters have a crimping "ring" at the top of the seater that forces the case neck into the crimping groove of the bullet when the case is pushed all the way into the seater. If you adjust the seater so the case does not enter all the way you avoid the crimping, but if you use a .30-06 case with a .308 win seater it may be impossible to back the die out far enough (12-13mm) to avoid the crimping. Its kind of like wearing shoes that are out of size for you, they do work but either pinches your toes or makes your feet sore.
Tron

Thanks Tron, I really appreciate it. I think I finally 'get it' when it comes to the arbor presses and hand dies. After your reply I dug out my Sinclair catalog and now I see what's going on. Thanks again for straightening me out on that one.

As far as the 308 seating die for a 30-06 again I think you set me straight on that one too. I was afraid that it had to do with the longer length of the 30-06 and not being able to back out the 308 die far enough. My friend has a new 30-06 and since they use the same bullets (until you to over 200 grains) and have the same inside neck dimension (both are .308") I could help him out with a few loads (he wanted me to make him a few reduced loads) if he just bought the sizing die (trying to get out cheap). Again thanks for taking the time to reply and I hope you're enjoying your range time.

Many Thanks,
XWind

Hello XWind -
Sorry I can't help with your hand die question - never used them.

I have used seating dies from one cartridge for another already. In my case, I used an RCBS Competition seater die from my 308 to seat bullets in the 30-06 and 300 W'by, after adjusting for length. As Tron mentioned, it's not a perfect fit, but, it WILL work.

R-WEST

Unless you can explain it in layman's terms, you really don't understand it.

I love that one! Thanks for sharing that quotable quote.

The advice given by TRB and R-West is excellent, and I really can't add to it. I just wanted to thank you for sharing those "words of wisdom."

Dan

The benchrest shooters use the arbor press to de-prime cases and to seat another bullet - not to resize the case. They do this reloading sitting at the shooting bench, and the arbor press and dies are just easier to use at the bench than a more normal reloading press setup that needs to be bolted or clamped to the bench to work.
They don't need to re-size the case because of the extremely tight chambers don't allow the fitted cases to expand enough to need re-sizing.
Look at Benchrest.com for more info on the benchrest shooters and their very specialized rifles, methods and equipment.

A typical seating die moves the case into the die, while holding the bullet stationary. Nothing keeps the case concentric as it is being pushed into the die.

Another thing that the arbor press style seating dies do is hold both the case and the bullet in line better than this typical threaded seating die. The case is fully inserted into the die before the bullet starts seating, and the bullet itself is held in alignmnet by the tight tolerances of the seating stem hole in the die. The seating stem is then pushed straight down into the die to seat the bullet. These can load some very concentric ammo. You can also precisely control/adjust bullet seating depth by placing shims between the seating die and the stem.

Hope this helps, Bill

R-West, thanks for sharing your experience with the .308 dies. Next time my buddy and I are at the range I'll get a couple of new 30-06 rounds from him and see if I can re-seat the bullets after disassembling the rounds. I didn't realize that the seating die registered on the shoulder of the case.

CMcDermott, thanks for the link and info. I have a much better understanding of this equipment than I did a couple of days ago and I do appreciate it.

Bill, I can see now that this process is beyond my needs, at this point anyway. I just hate not understanding how something works and I appreciate your feedback. {edited to thank Bill who posted while I was in the 'reply box'}

Thanks for your help and enjoy your trigger time.

XWind

ps Dan is that sarcasm I hear .... Enjoy

[ 01-29-2003, 02:21: Message edited by: XWind ]

Actually, no... I just honestly like that quote.

Dan

Instead of having to buy an arbor press and "straight line dies" you can square up your sizing and seating dies right on your own press.

Use a flat piece of steel or a flat washer on top of your shell holder and bring it up against the bottom of the die and THEN tighten the locking ring! I understand it but why don't you just call Sierra tommorrow and have them expain it and save me all that typing?

There are a lot of good ideas for free at Varmint Al's site and also at Sierra's 800#

I would like to add, while we are at this subject, that there are threaded seating dies that fully support the case while seating, I have forster dies for all the calibers I reload and they have a "chamber" that the case enters and only after the entire case is supported does the actual seating of the bullet take place, there are drawings at the forster site to illustrate the principle.

Also you can avoid out of line casse/cartridges with the forster co-ax press and dies, wich are built around the principle of "floating" the dies in relation to the case, the dies are allowed to move in relation to the cases so the case is not forced out of line while sizing/seating. After all that pr for expensive stash I must admit to having loaded extremely accurate loads with my old lee challenger kit..
Tron