Rifle DATA
NEVER Exceed the Loads Listed Here


7MM WINCHESTER SHORT MAGNUM CASE: WINCHESTER
BBL: 24" PR: WINCHESTER LRM
TWIST: 1:9.5" TRIM: 2.096

162 GR. HDY BTSP (Maximum Loads)
DIA. . . .284"
COL: 2.860"

RETUMBO
70.5C
3007
62,500 PSI

H1000
69.0C
2969
63,400 PSI

H4831
62.0
2915
62,800 PSI

H4350
58.0
2909
62,900 PSI

H414
57.5
2892
63,200 PSI

H380
56.0
2824
63,200 PSI

VARGET
51.5
2830
62,900 PSI

H4895
49.0
2773
62,700 PSI
Rifle DATA
NEVER Exceed the Loads Listed Here

7MM REMINGTON MAGNUM CASE: WINCHESTER
BBL: 24" PR: WINCHESTER LR

162 GR. HDY SPBT COL: 3.290"
H870 80.0 2883 43,300 CUP
H1000 70.0 2905 49,600 CUP
H4831 64.0 2871 49,800 CUP
H4350 58.0 2799 49,400 CUP

This data was taken from the Hodgdon powder website() http://www.hodgdon.com/data/rifle/7mmwinshortmag.php#top . The 7mm WSM is listed in psi units while the 7mm Remington Magnum is listed in c u p units. If possible can someone PLEASE convert these figures to the same unit of measure (i.e. psi to cup or cup to psi)?

I think it would be interesting to see if the two rounds are being loaded to the same level or is the industry underloading the Remington case and loading the WSM case to the hilt for marketing purposes.

Please pay close attention to the H1000 loads. Sixty-nine (69) grains of H1000 is listed as the compressed maximum for the WSM while 70.0 grains of H1000 is listed as the maximum for the 7 mm Remington. I would bet that once the pressure measurements are equated the Remington is underloaded.

What do you think?

Good Shooting,
HBB

[ 01-02-2003, 03:10: Message edited by: hillbillybear ]

There is no way of doing a conversion.

Of course the 7mm RM is loaded "down"... it's a forty year old proposition! If you want the most accuracy and velocity with an out-of-the-box 7 Mag and are going to use factory ammo, the 7mm WSM is the way to go. If you handload, you can get accurate loads in the 7mm RM that'll go around 100 fps faster than the 7mm WSM.

BA

[ 01-02-2003, 03:18: Message edited by: Brad ]

Brad,
Sure it's 40+ year old proposition but that's no reason to throttle back on the 7 Mag. The 700 Remington is still made with the same structural design as it was in 1962 and most 7Rems. I have shot do pretty good right out of the box. Besides as any experienced shooter knows the skill of person behind the trigger is birthplace of accuracy. A good rifle just enhances that talent. Gilt-edge accuracy is not the sole domain of the latest technical innovations.

If age is the only criterion to download a round. The ammomakers better ease up on the .30/06, .270, .308 and several other great rounds and quit making all this "light magnum" and plus P stuff you see on the shelf.
My Lord the 30/30, 45 Colt, and 45/70 better be totally diiscontinued they are way too old for anyone to get any reasonable shooting results with.

HBB, a MULTITUDE of Mauser 98's and all sorts of other actions (many of questionable strength) have since been chambered (rebarreled) to the belted Mag's... that's why most were limited in length to 2.5"... in those days the gun Co's made more on ammo (because there were very few handloaders) than they did on rifles. They were well aware that a lot of actions would be rebarreled to a 7mm RM, 300 WM, etc. and so kept the OAL of the cartridges short enough to work in those actions.

Honestly, I'm not really quite sure what kind of point you're trying to make with your thread... perhaps you could explain a bit more.

BA

I think a combination of factors explain these things. Adverstising geniuses want to convince us that every new product is what we really always wanted, until the next new wave. Remember the short barrel craze a few years ago? Of course many have a valid point about the ease with which a light weight rifle with a stumpy barrel can be lugged over hill and dale or through scrub. Forget all that muzzle blast and recoil because you only get to fire off a few rounds a year on a hunt anyway. Now don't we all know that the more we shoot a particular firearm, the better we get with it? How much fun was it to put 20 rounds or so through a .350 Rem Mag in it's original configuration at a bench? Notice how the new one has a longer barrel?
Want more proof when it comes to juggling the numbers? What about the old 7mm Rem mag vs. the 7mm Weatherby. To the reloader, VIRTUALLY IDENTICAL in every respect (all of us right?). Now, go look up some manufacturer's factory ballistics. It's laughable!
Everything is being dumbed down and "fool-proofed". It's the same in the motor industry. For example, how many family sedans or SUVs can be had with a proper manual transmission? Virtually none. People don't have brains enough to change gears. Now that some manufacturers realized that a few drivers do like performance, cars are appearing with 6-speeds! Praise be! (Like hotrodded 30-06s and 308s). They'll dumb this down too, just wait.
I understand that there are some old brittle actions out there, so use some common sense. Using the same argument, a law could be passed relegating every car to a 20 mph speed limit in case someone crashes their old seatbeltless Model T.
Europeans get full power loads and reloading data even in their highly regulated societies. I'd like to know the their number of lawyers per head of population. Ahhh... nothing personal now, but the stupid and greedy have a lot to answer for.

Brad,
What you say about the guns built on old actions is very true, however, if this is the reason to load the 7mag vintage magnums to lower pressures why did they load these rounds to the higher pressures to begin with? Do you think it took them 40 years to realize somebody might have used a mauser 95 as the basis for a custom 7MM magnum?
I don't think so. What about all the 06s and .270s built on those same actions? Is the danger of these rounds on weak actions any less?

This said. You may have hit the answer to the shortmag question in what you said about ammo sales. They are new "exciting" and "cutting edge" products that the sales guys just love. I am even intrigued by the idea of a .270 short mag. Its the only one of these gizmos that seems to offer an even small appreciable gain over the legendary .270WCF.

My reasoning behind this thread is an attempt to determine for myself if the sales and marketing of the Short Mags is coming at the expense of other time proven cartridges in the name of profit.
I just want to obtain as many opinions as posible from those who are active, interested participants in the shooting/hunting fraternity
HBB

Brad, true, but the real limiting factor on lawsuits in many European countries is the restriction on "no cure, no pay". Unless you have the money to pay for the retainer and court costs, people aren't filing lawsuits......

It's not a perfect system, either. FWIW, Dutch.

Why does everyone feel so insecure with their 7mmRem Mag, 300Win Mags, 338WinMag, and others. Guys those are great rounds and will serve you well for years. I also think the WSM's and RUM, are great rounds too. Don't worry so much about the 50fps. Just shoot what you like. Myself, I own .300Win's, and .30-06's, and 300RUM, and .308Win. I usually stick with those for ease of buying bullets for reloading. These new rounds don't mean that you are less of a man now. Embrace them all. Only things these new rounds do is give you more a choice now. I would like to have a 7mmRemMag and a 7mmWSM. I bet ya those animals I shoot won't know the difference.