With all the posts on here lately concerning "Runout" and other concentricity issues I'm thinking maybe I should purchase some kind of inspection tool for checking runout.

What's the best tool for the job, without spending a fortune? I see Forster makes the Co-Ax Case & Cartridge Inspector and RCBS the Case Master Gauging Tool. Any thoughts on these?


Or should I can the "Runout" gauges and keep what ever hair I have left?

Thanks

Use the Sinclair unit.

The will sell you a cheap dial indicator, or you can use one of your own.

Anyway, that is a very solid set-up.

If dee boolit ain't straight, eeet woan't fly straight.

I never bothered about measuring runout since staring loading in 1984. Then I started looking at it in 2005 and my rifle/reload performance has taken a step jump for the better since now I look at little things like expander ball centering and die alignment.

Good dies and seater dies are especially helpful.

The Forster measures "a" runout but I am of the opinion it is not the true number.

The RCBS unit measures the runout correctly but the case rests on two cheesy little black painted aluminium v-blocks that are not very smooth and the case does not glide nicely on them (too much friction). It works but not as nice as it could.

I've not bought the Sinclair but I believe it is good. The benchmark unit is the Neco, but it is a spendy bit of kit.

Runout checking is well worth while. You spend a lot on a barrel and components, it is in your own interest to make sure that every round you send down the tube is the best you can make.

One can argue whether runout actually shows up in group sizes, some people say they can detect an improvement, other people maintain this is not so. Regardless of which side of the fence you are on, I personally use runout as one indication of the quality of my reloading setup. That is, I don't religiously check every round I load, but when I set up for a new rifle, checking runout is part of how I validate my reloading process. It is not the only critteria, and to be honest to you I can't tell you that if you leave out step X, your groups will increase by Y%. But since I started my new reloading regime (including runout verification), I have significantly improved my accuracy results.

I personally use the Sinclair runout gauge.

- mike

since I bought a runout gauge, it can show you want you are doing right or wrong. don't get hung up on the bushing die setup like I did and waste a bunch of money. I think checking the runout is essential for working up new loads for a rifle, because you know you have eliminated any loading variables. It will also show you why factory ammo, will never shoots as well. I have the RCBS unit, which works fine, you have to somewhat get the feel on how to use it because its somewhat tricky to hold the case and turn it without gettng a false reading, however you can usually tell if the case is moving on you and makeing a false reading, I have heard the sinclair unit is easier to hold and operate I don't know

The RCBS works fine I've checked 1000s of rounds on mine and it has worked flawlessly.

Probably one of the best reloading tools I have on the bench.

Good Luck

Reloader

Between Me, LB404, and Prdatr I think that we own all of the different concentricity guages. They all work reasonably well if you spend a little time with them, some are more versitile, some are smoother and some are more expensive. If I get a little too much time on my hands I may write a more detailed reveiw of them all but here's a short rundown on what I see the differences in them being:

RCBS, The RCBS unit is the least expensive at around $75. It will not only measure concentricity but attatchments will allow you to measure case wall thickness and neck thickness. It's not that smooth but is the best tool for the money.

Sincliar, The Sinclair is much the smoothest of the bunch. At $96 with the indicator it's in the lower price range. It is the least versitile of the bunch, it pretty much just measures neck and bullet runout. If that's all you want it for it's the smoothest and easiest to use and set up.

NECO, The NECO will jump through more hoops than any of the others. It uses a different kind of indicator and it will measure bullet and neck runout, "Banana" shaped case runout, bolt face squareness off a fired case etc.. It uses V-Blocks and so it's not as smooth as the Sinclair. At $170 it's the most expensive of the basic units, but it does the most.

Holland, I've used this one the least. I don't have a current price but I think they are around $150. It will also go ahead and straighten the bullets and correct minor runout problems. It will straighten larger rounds like 375's and 416's which the Bersin won't. I found it difficult to use straightening rounds but Prdatr has one and uses it much better than I could, he likes it better than I did.

Bersin, By far the most expensive of the bunch. With the optional 1/10,000ths indicator it's also far the most accurate but really the 1/10,000ths indicator is TOO accurate, unless you are using benchrest quality rounds go with the indicator that reads in .01mm (about .0004). The Bersin tools is a straightener that I really like using in my most accurate rifles. It's smooth and accurate and pretty easy to use. It doesn't to anything else other than measure and straighten runout. It's disadvantages are lack of versatility and high cost.

I started with the RCBS tool and then bought the Bersin to fix the problems the RCBS turned up.
If money's tight buy the RCBS it's a lot of tool for the money.
If money is no object buy the Sinclair for just runout measuring, the NECO for it's other measurements and the Bersin to straighten them.

But ANY of them can help you learn to adjust your dies etc. to make better ammo............................DJ

Thanks all, I just orderd the Sinclair unit. Now, if my wife dosn't find out I'll be in good shape.

quote:

Originally posted by cummins cowboy:
since I bought a runout gauge, it can show you want you are doing right or wrong. don't get hung up on the bushing die setup like I did and waste a bunch of money. I think checking the runout is essential for working up new loads for a rifle, because you know you have eliminated any loading variables. It will also show you why factory ammo, will never shoots as well. I have the RCBS unit, which works fine, you have to somewhat get the feel on how to use it because its somewhat tricky to hold the case and turn it without gettng a false reading, however you can usually tell if the case is moving on you and makeing a false reading, I have heard the sinclair unit is easier to hold and operate I don't know

Chasing run out to me is like a dog chasing his tale. I shoot in the .2s and .3s with 3 rifles and .5s with the other and never worry with runout. Somebody is doing one heck of job selling concentricity tools.

quote:

Originally posted by steve4102:
Thanks all, I just orderd the Sinclair unit. Now, if my wife dosn't find out I'll be in good shape.

A friend designed and sold accessories marketed toward the threshold of marital pain

Dwight, maybe you got lucky and your rifles will shoot well no matter how crooked your ammo is. Then again maybe it doesn't matter as much as we think crooked ammo will have on group size, but a lot of people seem to notice a difference. I have not done it yet but has anyone loaded up, say 20 rounds, checked them all with a concentricity gauge and took the 5 straightest and the 5 with the most run out and fired them for group to see if there is any differece.

Hart

Then...you have to take the "mental" game out of it and have someone else try and "dupe the shooter". You must not have the shooter know which ammo he is shooting.
I think the concentricity game might have an effect on some rifles. But not nearly what people think. And NOT at normal hunting yardages.
Don't know how many people read the Shooting Times article on the new Savage "F" class 308. It shot ammo into tiny groups at 500 yds. About half the ammo was handloaded (with no special techniques) and half was factory match grade from hornady, black hills and cobon among others. The result was 7 different loadings produced groups under 2" AT 500 YDS!!!!
So, now I'm just dieing to have someone chime in and say......imagine what it would have done if the ammo was sorted to .002" and under runnout!!!!
Straight ammo will probably win matches by tiny margins....and may shoot slightly better groups at 1000 yds....but the average reloader will be better off spending time working on powder charges, seating depth, and finding the bullet his barrel likes.

I agree kraky! Measuring runout sounds like a waste of time and money to me. I have brought numerous rifles to shoot really accurate and I am familiar with the steps I took to get them there.I tried all the crap out there,turning necks,different bullets,cases,primers,cleaning techniques,different dies.barrels,calibers,rests,scopes,bedding techniques,different actions,etc...I never found that accuracy was effected by run out.If I suspected the cases were nor working for a particular rifle I would try another brand.If I thought it was the powder I would try another type.If I had a rifle that didn't shoot I would go through a mental list of all the variables that were responsible previously and would check them off.I would always find the problem comeing from one of these variables and would correct it.If I never had a problem with runout,that might be because of the dies that I used.I use quality seating dies that I keep in excellent condition.I was gave in the most accurate rifle I ever owned for rebarrelling and was told by the gunsmith that my whole action was crooked and the bolt face was not square.The gunsmith said that he corrected it but I could never get the tight groups I got before.

Some of my luck may just be in my processes. I have a friend with a gauge and I will have to borrow it to see if have runout or not. If I do and I always shoot tight groups then Runout is a non essential variable.

My simple processes. All rifles get glassed and barrels floated before firing. All scope screws get loctite. Never shoot factory brass. Never pick up others range brass. Never mix brass manufacturers. Never weight brass. Never turn necks. Never debur flash holes. Alwasy hone sizing buttons for just a little tension in average dies. In bushing dies I don't use an expander. Seat bullets with a competition seater and after lowering the ram , rotate the cartridge and run it in the seater one more time.
Go to range and shoot tight groups. Simple works and never change what works.

How many of you think the chamber in your factory rifle is cut straight? If you do, then I got some bad news for you. Now, how much better are your low runout reloads gonna shoot than high runout reloads in your crooked chamber? Runout gages tell you if your reloading setup is good, but they won't cut straight chambers or lap barrels. IMHO, they are only usefull to the custom rifle shooter, and then only will help make small improvements.

Heck I don't even know what runout is...if it has sumptin to do with concentricity then why call it run out...why not call it "out of round"

quote:

Originally posted by Dwight:
Chasing run out to me is like a dog chasing his tale. I shoot in the .2s and .3s with 3 rifles and .5s with the other and never worry with runout. Somebody is doing one heck of job selling concentricity tools.

Shooters with 1 rifle that will shoot in .2's and .3's are pretty rare. I would imagine a shooter with 3 rifles in the .2's or .3's that never worries about runout is exceedingly rare or uses good reloading techniques that result in low runout and good ammunition.

If you think runout doesn't matter take some of your loads and induce about .010 of runout and see if your rifles still shoot as well, I'd bet they won't.........................DJ

dj, you seem to own a lot of expensive rifles and all reloading tools known to man and probably some that arnt!

how does one afford such luxurys? win the lottery mate? or you get most things at wholesale prices

quote:

Originally posted by Paul from nz:
dj, you seem to own a lot of expensive rifles and all reloading tools known to man and probably some that arnt!

how does one afford such luxurys? win the lottery mate? or you get most things at wholesale prices

Paul, This is America. If you are willing to worky hard at a good job you can afford to spend too much of your income on your hobby. Doesn't hurt to have an understanding wife...................DJ

quote:

Originally posted by Paul from nz:
dj, you seem to own a lot of expensive rifles and all reloading tools known to man and probably some that arnt!

how does one afford such luxurys? win the lottery mate? or you get most things at wholesale prices

Priorities mate, speaking for myself, I have tens of thousands invested in shooting/reloading/gunsmithing and it's not because I am rich . This is just how I choose to spend my free time and money.

DJ--I'll agree with you on the .010" runnout not being good. I do have a runnout gauge and set my dies for good runnout. I used to go through every batch and sort them into three groups after reloading. I don't do it anymore and seriously doubt if anything would be over .005".
I know a famous gunmaker in Texas and asked him his personal take on runnout. He said he tries to stay under .003"......said you probably wouldn't notice any difference under .005"....but you could start to tell diff's at over .005" runnout.
That seemed to mirror my experience pretty well.
If I ever get into the really long range idea I would probably go back to persuing the real low numbers as an experiment.

For general hunting there really probably isn't a critical difference between a rifle that shoots 1/2-3/4" groups to one that shoots 1-1 1/4" groups. So the people that say concentricity doesn't really matter have a point in that regard.
Where the people that say that concentricty doesn't matter are wrong is in that it CAN make a difference in group size in many different rifles. The effort required to get the extra 1/4" or so probably isn't worth it to most reloaders but it is there if you are mildly nuts like those of us who try and wring everything they can out of stuff. Sometime we even enjoy the experimenting with how to get there......................DJ

quote:

Originally posted by djpaintles:

quote:

Originally posted by Paul from nz:
dj, you seem to own a lot of expensive rifles and all reloading tools known to man and probably some that arnt!

how does one afford such luxurys? win the lottery mate? or you get most things at wholesale prices

Paul, This is America. If you are willing to worky hard at a good job you can afford to spend too much of your income on your hobby. Doesn't hurt to have an understanding wife...................DJ

understanding wife? sounds like your in control, a good place to be IMO.

things down here are so much more expensive, you guys talk about $1000 rifles, our $1000 rifle is a remington 700 sps. a kimber montana 8400 is $2400. and i think a new sako 85 SS is $2800. a nesika action is $2000+ a redding big boss press can be over $400. and a good wage down here is probably 45-50k a year for a lot of jobs

quote:

Originally posted by Paul from nz:
things down here are so much more expensive, you guys talk about $1000 rifles, our $1000 rifle is a remington 700 sps. a kimber montana 8400 is $2400. and i think a new sako 85 SS is $2800. a nesika action is $2000+ a redding big boss press can be over $400. and a good wage down here is probably 45-50k a year for a lot of jobs

Sounds like stuff down there is about twice what it costs us here. But maybe that's the price you pay for living is such a beautiful place. The scenes I've seen from there were breathtaking and the friends of mine that have visited there loved it.
I think $45-50K for a good job might be about the same as here though in the US the cost of living can vary quite a bit. My $100k house in Oklahoma City would sell for $350-$450K in California and might not be in as good a school system...........................DJ

Paul,I am not speaking about anyone in particular but alot of the wealth displayed in present times is a direct or indirect result of really good passed times.I remember my mother working a bottom of the ladder job in the early seventies and getting a weekly salary of 320 dollars.That was a time when it cost 3000 dollars to buy a car.A weekly grocery bill for a 7 member family would be as low as 50 dollars (beer and cigarettes included).Today you can't buy fruits for two people for that amount and a carton of smokes here in Canada costs close to 70 dollars.This is not to say that there aren't people who are earning alot of money today,but it is a rare thing.If you start with nothing today you are better off in NZ,because most people are not making much more than 320 dollars a week..

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Paul,I am not speaking about anyone in particular but alot of the wealth displayed in present times is a direct or indirect result of really good passed times.I remember my mother working a bottom of the ladder job in the early seventies and getting a weekly salary of 320 dollars.That was a time when it cost 3000 dollars to buy a car.A weekly grocery bill for a 7 member family would be as low as 50 dollars (beer and cigarettes included).Today you can't buy fruits for two people for that amount and a carton of smokes here in Canada costs close to 70 dollars.This is not to say that there aren't people who are earning alot of money today,but it is a rare thing.If you start with nothing today you are better off in NZ,because most people are not making much more than 320 dollars a week..

and also, im sure the wealth is going to continue all over the world.

I personally can not really talk about being poor. being fairly young myself i dont have to pay a mortgage or anything really. which means i have a bit floating around and i tend to spend it on hunting in some way or another - should probably be saving it! i guess if you have shooting as your priority/hobby you can spend all your spare money on that just like people who have flying planes or motocross as a hobby.

your right DJ nZ is a great place to live with a good standard of living, just shipping things from one side of the world to the other seems to cost a few dollars, all the middle men taking their cut.
oh well atleast i can ride the 4-wheeler for half an hour and be in prime deer hunting country, private land too so dont have to put up with other people getting in ya way. the deer are free range though.

I shouldnt be complaining about anything should I?