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Squirrel shooter using 25.06 for long range, need advice for press and dies, I known there are some experts out there that can send me down the right path. I'm thanking you in advance for any info. critterhorse | ||
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I like the Co-Ax press and Forster dies, but almost any of the major brand presses will do and you can load some very good ammo with dies from RCBS, Redding, or Hornady. ------------------------------------ The trouble with the Internet is that it's replacing masturbation as a leisure activity. ~Patrick Murray "Why shouldn`t truth be stranger then fiction? Fiction after all has to make sense." (Samual Clemens) "Saepe errans, numquam dubitans --Frequently in error, never in doubt". | |||
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Redding and RCBS, the best and great service to boot. | |||
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If you are striving for extreme accuracy, I would advise you to use a neck die (bushing type) and stay away from the expander ball on regular dies. I believe that more case necks are pulled crooked and more case stretch is caused by pulling the expander ball back through a neck that has been oversized. Many people, on this forum, swear by a Lee "collet" die for neck sizing. I do not use one and don't personally know anyone who does. The Redding "bushing" dies seem to work fine once you determine the proper size bushing to use. NRA Patron Life Member Benefactor Level | |||
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Any commonly available modern press is fully capablible of loading as accurately as it can be done with common "screw-in" dies. Foster and Redding "competiton/BR" seaters dies are usually (there are excepttions to anything, you know) better because of their superior full body sleeve seating system. (It's NOT because of the expensive micrometer heads which add nothing to accuracy, they're only a small user convience. Foster's sizer dies are slightly more likely to provide straigher necks than others because of their unique elevated expander button. But that button only helps IF it's properly used! Neck sizing for factory rifles is best done with Lee's Collet Neck Sizer, available as a stand alone item. It's much better than any bushing die that's used without an expander button UNLESS the bushing die is used with fully turned necks. Full neck turning is rarely a good idea except for tight necked custom chambers, certainly not a good practice for factory chambers. So - get a Forster FL die set, with or without the micrometer head, as you wish. Add a Lee Collet neck die. Screw them into any press that looks good and costs enough to make you feel comfortable. | |||
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+1 I only use a press for sizing cases. Bullet seating is done with Wilson seaters, or custom made seaters similar to the Wilson Concept, using an arbor press to do the work. By using Wilson Seaters, I attacking the concentricity and runout issue of the loaded round. No exhaustive before and after testing done here, but a whole pile of targets shot with excellent groups on them. Don | |||
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I'll make some assumptions to simplify the questions asked: 1. Your loads will be restricted to magazine length rather than loading into the lands. 2. Economy may enter into your decision process. 3. Factory barrel. 4. You're not shooting benchrest. Best quality press for the least bucks (excluding the lowest cost option) - Redding Boss Sizing Die - Redding Type S FL bushing die Seating Die - Forster BenchRest (non-micrometer) die ________________________ "Every country has the government it deserves." - Joseph de Maistre | |||
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Extensive testing has found that the Bonanza Co-Ax press combined with Lee dies consistently produced the straightest loaded ammo, of all the combinations tried with conventional bench-mounted presses. Not by much, but the difference was quantifiable. Of course the straight-line dies like Wilson will do better but are much slower. I find RCBS to be very visually attractive but no better than any other maker and not as good as Redding or Lee. Have had more stuck cases with RCBS than any other maker, by far. I like Lyman dies OK and IMO their die boxes are by far the best since they hold 4 dies. If Redding would change their boxes to hold 4 dies then I'd replace all my other boxes with them, though, since they hold a spare decapping pin and don't let the shellholders roll around. Most accuracy for the least money? IMO Lee is the answer in most cases. Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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Good advice throughout the thread. In my bench guns I also used Wilson or similar inline dies. Have not found them to be much or any more effective than the RCBS or Redding bushing based Competition dies with Micrometer seaters fo my long range tactical or hunting weapons though, at least in the weapons and cailibres I shoot. In fact I have found some "standard" die sets to produce excellent rounds with respect to concentricity, but this is most likely "luck of the draw". The Lee collets are fine dies and in general produce more consitently accurate rounds than some of the "premium brand" standards. Simple advice: 1. Universal decapper die, as stated above avoid the standard expander balls. 2. Collet or bushing neck size. 3. TRIM LENGTH!! 4. Flash holes-uniform them. 5. 1st try standard COL the experiment from there ( the Stoney Point/ Hornady COL gauge is inexpensive and helpful) 6. BLAST them Critters DuggaBoye-O NRA-Life Whittington-Life TSRA-Life DRSS DSC HSC SCI | |||
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Redding or RCBS three die set. IF YOU'RE GONNA GET OLD,YOU BETTER BE TOUGH!! GETTIN' OLD AIN'T FOR SISSIES!! | |||
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Forster ot Corbin fully floated presses avoid the concentricity problems that can be found in "C" or "O" presses of any brand. Most turret presses have the same problems. For an excellent discussion of these problems you can go to the Corbin website and also look up comments from highly respected shooters on the sniper.com site. I don't think you can beat the new Forster dies, especially the new body bump/neck sizer. Micrometer bullet seating dies are handy if you plan to experiment with many bullets of varying ogive design. Otherwise, seaters are seaters are seaters, and the finest, closest tolerances in a seater cannot fix a case that was misaligned to begin with, especially if it is use in a press that is off kilter, too. If the enemy is in range, so are you. - Infantry manual | |||
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Get a Lee Challenger press and the Lee Collet dies. More money won't buy you any more of a match-grade ammo product. | |||
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Corbin reloading/swaging presses are no more "fully floated" than any traditional press. They have both a traditional shell holder and a conventional threaded die socket. Their CSP-2 press does have a sliding bar that helps keep the ram aligned with the die socket throughout the stroke. The Forster Co-Ax is the only press that combines floating shell holder jaws and a slot to allow the die to float. Ironically, it is actually a C-frame press, albeit the linkage is anchored to the top, near the die, rather than the bottom as on traditional O- or C-frame presses. Unlike the Corbin, whose shell holder rides up and down on fixed guide rods, the shell holder on the Co-Ax is fixed on guide rods that ride in upper and lower bearings in the press frame. Andy | |||
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The Forster Co Ax depends totally on the lock ring thread being square to the ring face to keep the die perpendicular to the press. I don't consider that such a great design feature. I have seen too many lock rings that are not square with the threads. | |||
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I'm getting off topic, but I would surely like to know more regarding this topic. For instance, are there brands to be avoided, variance among rings generally, techniques for measuring squareness.... An invitation to start a thread, perhaps. ________________________ "Every country has the government it deserves." - Joseph de Maistre | |||
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Me neither. In fact, I have lathe turned all my lock rings to be square with their dies because of that. We either face turn them, on the die, or live with them as they are. ?? But, no, I haven't found any brand of dies or rings to be consistanly better than any other, including my Forsters. None are really bad and none have been truly square. Perhaps that's why so many have knurled lck rings, so folks won't wrench them tightly in firm non-alignment? | |||
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I love that feature. I reload for 60 different cartridges, and I have lots of used die sets from Ebay. Some old Bonanza or Forster lock rings I receive must have been stuck in a press and removed with a cold chisel and a sledge hammer. I suppose that one could make a mandrel of 7/8-14 threaded rod [which I have lying around for making dummy dies] and true the face of lock rings. But I buy Forster lock rings by the bag for putting on other brand dies like RCBS, Redding, and Lee.  Don't be a cheapskate like me and use a Rockchucker for 10 years before buying a co-ax. Lots of old farts like me have two co-ax presses, so they do not have to swap between large and small jaws for large and small cartridges. Who wants to put their glasses on and fuss with small parts for a minute to invert the jaws? But I have drilled and tapped the shell plate for a retainer screw. I have two sets of jaws that I can swap in 8 seconds while blindfolded. http://forums.accuratereloadin...=946107416#946107416 | |||
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I have no interest in out fitting 200 dies with the $3.50 per ring Forster Bonanza rings. Especially when they may not be square to the die threads. What is the most accurate functional datum on a die? It is the pitch diameter of the 7/8 -14 threads. The threads of the lock ring are one variable tolerance away from the die threads. The perpendicularity of the lock ring face to the the lock ring threads is another variable away from the die thread. I see little possibility benefit with the Bonanza press when my Rockchucker produces ammo that basically duplicates the results I get with Wilson dies and no press. | |||
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One of the keys to the proven performance of the Co-Ax press combined with the Lee dies is the Lee floating lock ring. This feature has long proven to be both one of the best and one of the least-heralded of the Lee innovations. It's the main reason IMO that the standard (standard, not even collet!) Lee dies will frequently outperform dies of other brands & designs. I own and use both a RockChucker and a Co-Ax and I like both, AAMOF these are the only 2 presses I own. There's no doubt in my mind, the Co-Ax with Lee dies loads straighter ammo in my experience. I also have some Wilson straight-line dies, their ammo is slightly straighter than the Co-Ax but not by much. Unfortunately only one of my rifles will shoot under 1/2 MOA so I really can't take full advantage of the straighter ammo. Heck, even if my rifles would do it, my eyes wouldn't! Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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I've seen lots of set-screw lock rings that were not square to the die threads (especially when tightened), and an occasional press's die hole that was not square to the ram, or sometimes even the top face of the press. I've seen far fewer cross bolt lock rings from Forster and Hornady that were not square to the die, once tightened. And replacing an out-of-square lock ring is very inexpensive compared to replacing a press. If the lock ring's face is not square to the die, what makes you think it will let the die sit square in a threaded press hole, once tightened? There has to be enough play in a threaded hole to allow it to screw in and out easily. The angular threads will cause the die to tilt if it is not exactly centered in the threaded hole, once tension is applied. A cross bolt lock ring takes out the play by reducing the ID as it is tightened, thus ensuring that if the threads were cut square to the faces, then the faces will be square to the die when tightened. A set screw lock ring deliberately de-centers the lock ring on the die, and is rarely square on the die when tightened. If a threaded die is left loose to float in the press threads, as it shifts laterally, the shape of the threads (we're not talking about square cut acme threads here) will cause the die to tilt. The degree of tilt is proportional to the off-center lateral float in the threaded hole. In the co-ax, the die and cross-bolt lock ring threads are locked together (and quite square in most cases), while the flat mating surfaces of the lock ring and press allow lateral float for alignment without imparting any tilt.
Threaded engagements are too expensive to precision fit on dies and reloading presses, especially if there is no means of taking out the play between male and female threads (like a cross-bolt lock ring, various anti-backlash arrangements, etc.) Andy | |||
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There is also the option of using the Lyman "M" die to do the case neck expansion. Just remove the ball expander from any standard sizing die, and use the "M" die as another step. A little slower perhaps, but also cheaper than neck bushing dies. There are also the stainless steel lock rings Sinclair now sells. Even more expansive than Forster's aluminum versions, but probably will last forever. Lots of ways to get straight, concentric cases and bullets; and remember that is what you are trying to achieve. Of course if your chamber isn't concentric with the bore of the barrel it's all a wasted effort anyway. | |||
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Andny You need to go to thread school. Threads to no permit a die to tilt when the engagement is sufficient. Try your theory a little more and you will find it is total non-sense. If the did can be off center what makes you think your ring will be straight? | |||
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Theories are fine, but if they don't agree with the actual test results then something is wrong. We can sit here and theorize about just why a certain combination works well or should work well, but the test results will indicate whether the theory is valid or not. Theory says that a bumblebee can't fly; test results show that he will fly faster than you can run, and sting the stew out of you! Test results have shown that a 'floating' arrangement gives straighter ammo than a solidly fixed arrangement, at least in a conventional-type reloading press. Just like the bumblebee, all the theories in the world won't change that simple fact. Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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I am still waiting for someone to tell me how pressure against a the axis of a threaded member is going to make it tilt to one side. | |||
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All it takes is a piece of grit. Plus, if you think all the dies are always machined properly then IMO you are mistaken. Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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Thread school? Been there, done that. Let's just look at a threaded die in a threaded hole. There is lateral play of the die in the hole, otherwise you would not be able to screw the die in/out, or interchange different dies in different presses. Given a triangular thread profile (i.e. not ACME or other square thread profile), if the die is not centered in the hole, then one side of the die's threads engage more than the other. The side with less engagement is free to wander up or down (depending on pressure/tension applied in the axis of the die) further than the side with more engagement. This causes tilt. If the thread engagement were frictionless, or enough axial pressure applied (i.e. one of the reasons for torque specs on threaded fasteners) the axial pressure or tension would cause the die to center itself in the triangular threads, yielding identical thread engagement all the way around. Most presses, and dies for that matter, do not have adequately polished threads to avoid sufficient friction, and thus result in tilted dies being tightened in them. Using lubrication on the threads helps. The reason a cross bolt lock ring does not have this problem is that when it it tightened on the die, there is zero lateral play, because the diameter of the lock ring is reduced as it is tightened. No lateral play in the threads, no tilt (assuming it was cut/threaded squarely to the faces). By contrast, set screw lock rings FORCE a lateral offset on the die, which when put under axial tension/pressure, is not allowed to center, resulting in tilt. As has been demonstrated by many experienced reloaders, if you want the best possible alignment with a threaded die in a threaded press, leave the lock ring loose, then run a cartridge up into the die. While keeping upward pressure on the case in the die, snug the lock ring down against the press. Either use a cross-bolt type lock ring and go ahead and tighten it, or use a set screw lock ring, but do not tighten the set screw. And don't forget to lubricate the threads. Or just get a Forster co-ax and use cross-bolt lock rings... Andy | |||
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JD You are talking yourself into a dead end here. A bad die is a bad die. Forster's lock ring will not fix that. | |||
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Andy, All that happens when a V thread is put under an axial load is it pushes against the thread flank. Guess what - the contact angle is the same for 360 degrees. All that happens is the die is forced to the center. Anyone that has rebarreled a rifle knows that. | |||
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If the die is not aligned with the force of the ram, then the casing will attempt to align itself in the shellholder to accommodate the die. The force of the ram acting on the die through the casing, if misalignment persists, will attempt to align the die in the press frame's threads. The die will try to misalign itself in the threads, which would cause a cant due to the threads having pitch, but the Vee of the thread will also attempt to re-center the die. With adequate compliance in the shell holder, this conflict of forces won't exist. Proper polish of the shell holder (does anyone else do this?) and penetrating lube (I treat my shell holders with Tetra grease) will reduce the friction between brass, shell holder and ram. How much of this has to do with die lock rings? How much of a problem is the lock ring causing? How much of a problem is created by press misalignment? There has to be a misalignment somewhere for any of it to matter. ________________________ "Every country has the government it deserves." - Joseph de Maistre | |||
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Get the "Co-Ax" press. Use a straight line bullet seating die. Forrester, Bonanza, and RCBS have worked well for me. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Do you know anyone that torques their dies into their cast iron or cast aluminum press? I didn't think so. As for seating a rifle barrel in the receiver, do you know any that will re-zero after removing and replacing? If it is perfectly centered every time, why wouldn't it re-zero every time? Andy | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Reloading Advice on a Press and dies for 25.06 for making match grade
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