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A week ago I went to the range with my .300 win. I had 180 gr Accubonds and H- 1000. Mt loads were 78, 78.5,79,79.5 and 80 gr respectively. The 80 gr load shot fantastic one hole that measured .615 outside to outside. Went back on Sat. with 12 cartridegs with 80 gr and a few 80.5 and 81 gr. This week the groups were no where near as good, with the best group being the last 81 gr load.It was less than 1" but not nearly as tight. This is a new barrel with less than 100 rds thru it. What is wrong other than me maybe jerking instead of squeezing? Thanks Windage and elevation, Mrs. Langdon, windage and elevation... | ||
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How many shots were in your original groups? ...Titan | |||
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Clean the barrel. Free float it. Cheque the scopemounts and, if you're not satisfied, try another scope. Fire three fouling shots after cleaning. Shooting one day .315" (.615 minus .30 caliber) may be a three shot fluke. Groups one day to another could widen twice, due to standard deviation, wind, mirage, and so on. And even groups of .6 inch won't let you down on game. Nice day, Jan. | |||
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Still darn good shooting. I've posted many times that a 3/4" group is the same as a 1" group. Often the difference is one shot and that was a matter of random luck. Most folks just report the better group on the internet and this is how there are so many 1/2 moa guns out there. If you're happy with the velocity you're getting then you have a keeper. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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I did not chrono last week's loads, however, this week the chrono's were what I thought to be very close. Around 2900 for the 80 gr + or - 30 fps up to 3000 for the 81 gr + or - 30 fps. The barrel is free floated. I clean at the range after 8 rds and then clean when I am done at 20 rds. It seems that my best groups are coming in the last group AFTER I clean. I usually shoot 20 rds in this heat, it takes so long to cool the barrel and all. But after I clean after 8 rds, my 6th thru 20th shots equal the best group of the day. There was a crosswind on Sat that wasn't there last week, but would that affect the vertical positioning of the shots? or just the horizontal? It equaled about 6" at 200 yds. Thanks Windage and elevation, Mrs. Langdon, windage and elevation... | |||
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It seems like it happens to me all of the time. I just try it again & see what the results are. Chalk it up to me having a bad day. | |||
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It's hard to shoot small groups day in & day out. It's about being concistent. Try not cleaning after 8shot. Most rifles don't shoot eounds1 & 2 to the sam poi as 19-20. I run a fouling shot or 2 then settle down to shoot groups, clean after 20-40rds depending on the bbl. LIFE IS NOT A SPECTATOR'S SPORT! | |||
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chain, Thank you for posting that story. That was good data. Even groups from benchrest rifles will vary a lot from one string to the next. For example, here is a typical string from a 22 ppc, using the same load: 0.183", 0.081", 0.217", 0.166", 0.180". Those are great groups, yet the standard deviation for the group size is 31%. Contrast that to chronograph velocity data, where 1/2 of 1% standard deviation is a realistic goal !!!! How many of us can shoot a string of groups with only 1/2 of 1% variation in group size? I sure can't. Chain, your data has illustrated my pet peeve with the so-called "ladder" method or OCW method of load development, which is that ONE GROUP PROVES NOTHING. To prove something about accuracy, you need a lot of data for each load. If you really really want to prove something about accuracy, you need to do a test for statistical significance, something along the lines of a chi-squared test. Most shooters don't do that because it's too complicated. The math gets even more complicated when you have many different loads as with a ladder test. I have yet to see anyone prove statistical significance for a ladder test. Realistically, I'd suggest you shoot several groups of each load, and go by the average. How many groups? I would say 5 groups with each load is a bare mininum. Mathematically speaking, 5 data points is skating on thin ice. My personal practice is to shoot 3 groups per load, always compared to a control load, and then any load that looks interesting is repeated at the next range session, for a total of 6 groups for the test load plus 6 groups for the control load -- 12 groups all together. Then I plug the data into a chi-squared test. That's a lot of shooting. The military uses a different system, where they measure the distance from the center of the group for each shot. This gives them a data point for each shot, compared to group shooting, which gives only one data point for the entire group. The military system is better, but much more difficult to calculate unless it is computerized. | |||
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If I have learned one thing over the years, to check yourself because you tend to fail more than your equipment. I felt good on most of the shots however I expected to go out and just shoot one hole groups based on the last weeks final group and that might have upset my apple cart enough. But these results that I have gotten just re-inforce to me that you need to shoot, shoot and shoot some more. I didn't mention that all these loads were FL re-sized and that is where I think I am having my problem. I am using a powder lube inside the neck and a liquid outside the case. Sometimes though the lever is harder to raise on the press than others. I think I need to be more consistant in that step. Maybe just neck size or PFL resize? Thanks Windage and elevation, Mrs. Langdon, windage and elevation... | |||
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Quickload and Quicktarget think that a 5 mph wind could move that bullet pushed by that powder over .3" Then there is the barrel heating. Then there is the barrel fouling. Then there is the degradation of the bedding in round bottomed recievers like Remington, Savage, and Kimber. Then there is the idea that what ever is shot with a 300 Win mag does not need sub moa accuracy. | |||
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Is there anyone on this forum that doesn't feel that sub- MOA performance is necessary? This accuracy thing is like a disease, and I have sucombed to it, I'm afraid. Windage and elevation, Mrs. Langdon, windage and elevation... | |||
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Chain, You asked.... I'm one of those guys that doesn't get wrapped around sub MOA groups. I primarily hunt ( for food) and so anything that gives me 3" or less at 100 meters stays in the safe- everything else gets traded. I can't remember the last shot that I took over 150 meters- other than a crow w/ my .17... Then again, I don't live in "Bean-Field" country either. Anyone who is disgusted by their 1-2" groups can "donate" their arms to this Soldier anytime!! Don't get me wrong- I sure do appreciate accuracy and that's why I reload. I just believe "good enough" is a relative term. If you're hunting w/ this particular load, I think you've done a good job and it's "good enough". BTW, How does it shoot off-hand? There aren't alot of benches in the field.... My 2 cents...  Ron | |||
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Well actually the highlight of my day was hitting a bowling pin at 200 off-hand with the last shot of the day. I had just shot a group on the target so my windage hold off was pretty easy. I just had some work done and now I am trying to justify in my mind the money spent plus if the gun and myself can sometimes shoot small groups we should be able to do it at least most of the time Windage and elevation, Mrs. Langdon, windage and elevation... | |||
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Popenman... ummm... what do you mean by a SD of 31%? While you're at it, you wrote "...where 1/2 of 1% standard deviation is a realistic goal..." you might care to elaborate on that statement as well... "...you need to do a test for statistical significance, something along the lines of a chi-squared test. ..." tell us more.... I'd love to hear a more detailed explanation of the variations and limitations inherent to your analyses... and 'data points'...  ******************************** A gun is a tool. A moron is a moron. A moron with a hammer who busts something is still just a moron, it's not a hammer problem. Daniel77 | |||
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This happens to me all the time... mostly it's me, then the heat, then wind or ... take your pick | |||
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Shooting small groups is much like arguing with a wife. The longer you do either, usually the worse it gets. Ron has it figured right, or at least I agree with him on what he said. Far as my hunting guns and MY shooting go. Long as I can put them all on a typing page at 250 or 300yds. That's good enough for me. I never shoot offhand, or rapid fire, so I don't practice either. That's what I don't like about shooting matches. Dad and my other elk killer teachers taught me to "never ever shoot game without a rest". I never have, and have never wounded one yet either. Some I've had to follow up a couple hundred yards because that's about how far elk will go when lung shot. But, that's it out of 14 elk and around 60 deer. Lucky? Maybe, I figure it's because I listened when it counted. Inch groups with a hunting rifle chambered in 300win, is much like I've said about my old Chevy truck. "IF it ever made 9 mpg, I'd take IT to the taxidermist!!" George "Gun Control is NOT about Guns' "It's about Control!!" Join the NRA today!" LM: NRA, DAV, George L. Dwight | |||
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Chain, Sub moa is ok if your punching paper it is very unlikely that that you will be able to duplicate that kind of accuracy in the field, and unless you are shooting varmints @ 400yds + is not needed. I think that consistency from a rifle is far more important than trying to squeeze groups. I had better groups from a shotgun than my new M70, but after a feww hundred rounds it is consistently shooting a 1.5" disc, now you might think that that is nothing to write home about, but it might shoot high & right one day "all in the disc" and low & Left the next, these variations for what ever reason temp, humidity,wind etc we usually without instruments cannot measure or see the difference so we put it down to the gun/load.. There is then of course driver error, which is probably the most inconsistent part of the whole equation. Sub moa is like sex, always sought after, very nice but not neccessary.. regards griff | |||
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I am trying to eliminate as much of the operator error as possible. Trying to get more trigger time, although here I am working on a Sunday. I have noticed that my rifle hits high one day and left the next. But I think it is the way I have the rifle set up on the bench. I haven't bought a rear bag yet, I m still decided on which one I want. I think I am not getting consistant placement with what I have been doing. I need a rear bag and maybe a good front rest. Thanks Windage and elevation, Mrs. Langdon, windage and elevation... | |||
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Hey Chain, Not having a Rear Bag can absolutely do it. Since you suspect your "Form" is in need of improvement, I'd encourage you to shoot a 22LR out at 100yds. If you are sighted in with it dead on at 25yds, it will be about 6"-8" low out at 100yds. You can get a lot more Trigger Time with it than any centerfire and at much less expense. Also, begin Dry Firing your Bolt Action in the morning and evening from the Off Hand position out the window at a post. You can see how well your technique will improve in a very short time. Just make sure it is unloaded. Best of luck to you. | |||
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Chain Consistancy and accuracy are long term projects with a hunting rifle most of the time. The more you shoot and the more you reduce the small variable the smaller the groups get. After all, statistics say that if you have one foot in a bed of hot coals and the other foot in liquid nitrogen, then you are in perfect shape! I'm definitely not immune  It would be easy to be proud of the group on the right if I had not just shot the group on the left. At least I don't shoot at fence posts like HC!  ____________________________________ There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice. - Mark Twain | Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others. ___________________________________ | |||
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That's how it goes for me. That is why I put a 300 yd range limitation on my shooting at game animals. I think those guys that make some of the amazing shots we see on TV and read about ar ealot better than I am. I just started this reloading thing and one thing it has taught me is how good I AINT. Windage and elevation, Mrs. Langdon, windage and elevation... | |||
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Hmmm... sounds like your rifle likes to shoot fouled. Just swab the bore with Birchwood-Casey Sheath on a patch next time after shooting, without cleaning the barrel. Then, when you go to the range next time, put a dry patch or two through the bore and start shooting for group. I'll bet it will settle down & shoot well after just one or two shots, perhaps even on the very first round...... After all, it is the first shot or two from a cold barrel that matter when hunting. The Sheath is just to prevent rust in the time between range sessions....... "Bitte, trinks du nicht das Wasser. Dahin haben die Kuhen gesheissen." | |||
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Feel free to Dry Fire on the neighbors dogs and cats, but don't let them see you doing it.  | |||
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