I have a good friend who reloads,I also.
He allways wants the highest velocity he can get!
Most of his guns shoot 1 1/2 groups at 100 yards,
all guns are used for deer hunting.He can see for
600 yards any direction.He claims higer velocity
more knock down power! "its only a deer"
I on the other hand want "accuracy"All of my guns shoot less than 1 inch at a 100 yards and the ones that dont i dont hunt with.Hitting where you aim is more important to me.WE both do alot of shooting at extended ranges and know our rifles
well and our loads,and we both hunt in wide open
areas ,In the past three years that we hunted to gether i have killed 6 deer 7 hogs ,4 of the deer and 3 of the hogs were 300 plus yards away.
He hasent killed the first thing yet! allthough
ive heard alot of shooting and he has lost alot
of shirt tails!
SO what means more to you Accuracy or Velocity?
reloaderlen

power without control is usless

POWER AN VELOCTY IS NOTHING WITHOUT ACCURACY ONLY ACCURATE WEAPONS ARE INTERESTING. MY FRIEND IS A SILOUET SHOOTER AN WAS ALWAYS LOOKIN FOR SOMETHIG HEAVY ENOUGH TO KNOCK DOWN THE RAMS.HEAVY SLUGS SOMETIMES DONT TRAVEL DOWN RANGE AS FAST BUT STILL GET THE JOB DONE.I WAS ONCE AMASED AT A PRACTICE SESSION ONCE. HE SHOT A RAM IT FELL OFF THE RAIL WE COULDNT SEE IT BUT HE SHOT IT A FEW TIMES MORE. I SAID HOW THE HELL YOU KEEP HITTING THAT TARGET? HE JUST GRINNED AN SAID YOU HAVE TO SEE EM JUST KNOW WHERE THEY ARE .

A 357 MAGNUM CAN BE YOUR BEST FRIEND

Accuracy

Len, it sounds like your friend may just be a bad shot and an even worse hunter! Some people really don't have the temperment for either.

I'm curious, have you shot his rifles and know for a fact that 1.5" group is the best any will do, or this just the best your friend is capable of.

Many shooters when actually confronted by live game get "buck fever" and can't hit a school bus.


Anyway, I'd say the answer to your question is accuracy is most important by far. However, there is what I can "hunting accuracy" and plenty of VERY successful hunters kill their game each year with rifles that probably won't stay in 3" at 100 yds. The important thing IMHO is for a hunter to KNOW what he and his rifle can do and then stay within those limits. Being able to put every bullet in the same hole as the last is NOT a requirement for hunting. Knowing what you can and can't do is!

Hear hear Pecos.

Where I come from, you get one shot and one shot only. If you do have to use the next, questions are asked and the guy's laugh their buts of.
That is with deer size game.
Bigger game may take a follow up or two. But your friend did'nt shoot at buffs and elefants did he?
"It's not what we do it's how we go about doing it"

Everyone has a rifle that shoots under .5 MOA all the time!! Actually, 1.5" groups @ 100 yards are not that bad. The British established a 3", 100-yard group as the acceptance minimum standard for the SMLE, and that rifle has always been thought of as a very effective long-range military weapon. Men are smaller targets than a lot of game animals!! However, to seek velocity at the expense of accuracy is a regrettable approach to the art of handloading!! Today, a person who seeks MAXIMUM velocities is stupid to handload if there is a Federal High-Energy or Hornady Light or Heavy Magnum load available in their caliber, because one will NEVER be able to equal this velocity with any kind of safe handload!! For example, I bought some 165-grain .30/'06 Fed High Energy ammo that did chronograph at 3140 FPS, as advertized, in my TCR with a 23" barrel. BUT, it is not nearly as accurate as many 165-grain handloads I have put together myself. Of course, mine are in the 2700-2800 FPS velocity range, too! While we are on this subject, another thought comes to mind. It is almost universally claimed that loads from 1-5 grains BELOW PUBLISHED MAXIMUMS ARE ALWAYS MORE ACCURATE. Nothing could be further from the truth. Many loads at, or OVER, PUBLISHED MAXIMUMS often prove to be the most accurate. The only way you will know is by testing various combinations IN YOUR OWN RIFLE, which is different from all others in the same caliber!! There is nothing wrong with WORKING UP, as long as you do it from well below the published maximum, and do it in small increments. I use an increment of one-half grain with all high-powered rifle loading, and one-tenth of a grain in pistols with slow-burning pistol powders like H110, AA2400, etc. My load workup ceases when I get to the most accurate load that does not damage cartridge cases. I do not use any powder faster than AA2400 for heavy handgun loads.

Another point to consider when worrying about accuracy is "Accuracy when and where?"

So what if a guy can shoot under .5 moa at 100 yds. What is his accuracy in the heat of battle at a live game animal? Most of us have two totally different performance levels when shooting. (Whether we like to admit it or not.) One for the range and one in the field. And they may have little correlation to one another.

[ 08-01-2002, 23:20: Message edited by: Pecos45 ]

Someone mentioned above that you generally get "one shot". I agree with that, which means my rifle generally shoots a one shot group of .277" at 100 yards. I think that it is more important to be able to hit a given point of aim than to have ultimate accuracy. Of course we all look for itty-bitty groups from a 3,5,10 shot group but again how many hunting rifles are shot with fouling shots, warm barrels, etc.?

You need to know the distance that you are shooting and be able to put the bullet very near that spot from a variety of rests, stances, etc. I think we are all looking for that combination of accuracy, precision and luck!

Velocity without accuracy is sorta like a Formula 1 car with no steering wheel. Kinda pointless really.

As some of you know, I am a power nut. BUT, if I can't have accuracy too, I will forgoe the power. If you don't hit the right spot, the power is wasted. Most of my guns are most accurate a bit below max.

Len,
1.5 MOA is still quite acceptable hunting accuracy, your friend must be a very poor shot.

If the firearm shoots 1.5 MOA at 100 yards, odds are it will miss at 600 yards no matter how fast it is going.

Your friend is a poor shot on game period.

It don't make a damn bit of difference how fast a bullet goes by an animal. Velocity is wonderful if you can place your shot ACCURATELY. Jim

Phantom Duck..deerhunting at 600 yards is streching the issue a bit in my book .
But then, I�m not a youngster anymore and my eysight has taken the toll of the years.

But generally speaking, accuracy is the base all good shooting is based upon, then came the art of converting shooting skills to hunting skills.
It seems like this guy is not up to that hunting part yet.

I agree that 1,5 MOA is not a bad accuracy in a deer rifle. I guess most of us could live very well with that.

Thanks! Everyone has made some good points.
I have loaded for his guns and shot them too!
I hate to rub it in on a guy with his own
smoke pole!But i have once or twice.I have
had a bad day at the range now and then,
i just came from the range and it wasen't
good guns that shoot 1/2 groups i couldn't
get1 1/2 groups, key word I,But it will be
better tommorow.I think ill share these comment's
with him and see if we can change his mind
to accuracy not velocity
Thanks reloaderlen

the shooter could be the problem 1.5 will not miss a deer. put it on paper at 300 or 400 lets see what the load and the shooter can do ,thanks,keith

Many rifles shoot just about as well with near max loads as with lighter loads. If I was about too shoot up to 600 yards at game (too far for me) I would load a big cartridge and load it hot.

That's what I have .300 Mags for.

They shoot quite well. Can I shoot a hot kicking load as well as one of my match rifles at game? I doubt it. But a lot of shooting experiance makes it likely that I can get off a perfect shot. But there is also range, wind and moving game estimations.

The point about the first shot from a rifle hitting at point of aim cannot be made too often.

As others have said above I think it's the shooter and not the rifle.

My .270 will shoot under 1 MOA from my usual rest, off the top of the car.
Accuracy under pressure means more to me then bench data.
If I load myself up with a rifle, sidearm, backpack full of gear, extra water, etc. and then trudge up and down the hills all day. The groups tend to open up quite a bit. It doesn't make any difference to me if my gun shoots little tiny groups. The bigger question is: can I hit the target while huffing and puffing and being hyped out on adrenaline? Accuracy and/or velocity at the bench means nothing if it cannot be applied in the field.

Speed is nice but I load for accuracy.

OK, I'll get off my soapbox now

ZM

[ 08-17-2002, 20:05: Message edited by: Zeke ]

I load for both. There are loads that will deliver the payload with accuracy and velocity- it just takes more work to find the perfect combo sometimes.

Knowledge is power---- not velocity. Accuracy is the direct result of knowledge. Velocity is the direct result of more powder. You are the smarter of the two!