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I have only had a couple. Guns that refused to group consistently. One, I fixed by re-crowning. This one is causing some head scratching. 300 Win Mag, Winchester CRF mod 70, Shilen barrel, McMillan A3 stock, Leupold VX-6, 3-18x56. I have tried RL-22 and H4831SC. 190 Nosler Custom Competition (identical to SMK), 180 Nosler Accubond and 175 Custom Competition. Most groups are 1.2” or so. It will shoot a .5” then a 1”+ with the same load. No load has shot consistently good groups. I’m shooting 3 shot groups, letting the gun cool between shots and shooting 2 other rifles. Rifle is bedded. More than adequate clearance between stock and barrel from 3” in front of tang. Indoor Air conditioned 100 yard range. I can make mistakes shooting, but this is not me. When I pull a shot, I know it and either don’t count it or I can call it close enough to get an accurate measurement. I’m shooting great little groups with the 7 mag and 6.5 CM between crappy groups with the 300 WM. I have played with seating depth, taking it all the way out to 3.535”. Helps, but no consistency. Ideas? | ||
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Scope and/or mounts/rings maybe? | |||
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Swapped scopes, both VX-6’s Checked picatinny base. All screws torqued properly. None bottom out on barrel or bolt. Rings are all tight. Leupold MK4 rings on one and LaRue QD mounts on the other. I have disassembled the gun and im looking at everything with threads and everywhere the stock touches anything. I removed the muzzle device and will shoot w/o a can as that is now my #1 suspect. Silencerco Saker with the old style mount that they discontinued. I think it’s never locked 100% tight and im getting inconsistent vibrations from the poor lock up. I’ll switch to the ASR mount and use my Omega instead. It’s proven to be a reliable can when accuracy is needed. | |||
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Please, if you will solve this, let us know. I really don't know and want to know why too. Something could be "on edge". It is working now and not working then. Now, it is just brainstorming: headspace? twist (not an issue for 180 grainers), even barrel screwed tight enough in receiver? Jiri | |||
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Are you torqueing the action screws the same each time you dis-assemble the rifle? Guns and hunting | |||
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Technically, no. Yeah, I know I should. If I was getting inconsistent groups from before and after disassembly, I’d look to that. But the good/bad groups are back to back on the range. It seems like it’s pointing to an inconsistency somewhere. Vibrations that are not consistent or repeatable. I’m putting my money on the suppressor attachment. Front and rear action screws are clear of obstruction and don’t bottom out on bedding packed in the rear hole or the bolt on the front hole. I’ll drill out the front hole do the screw only touches the bottom metal and the action. | |||
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You said it in your first post; s brand barrel. Have had them do that which is why I won't use them; poorly stress relieved. I keep saying that but no one believes me. Of course after the owner has properly trouble shot all of the components that make a shooting system called a rifle. I just read that you have a silencer on it and it's loose? | |||
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I don’t know that it’s loose. If it was loose, that would be an obvious red flag. I suspect that the locking mechanism isn’t as secure as needed for the consistent repeatability needed for precision shooting. Silencerco stoped using this system after a few cans got sent down-range and a few others were stuck to the muzzle devices. I use this can and mount on my 260 Rem and it’s an incredibly accurate gun. So, maybe it’s poor QC on the muzzle devices? It’s a guess, so, I’m going to eliminate that variable. As for the theory of not properly de-stressing the barrel, that could be the case. I’m not going to jump straight to that conclusion without checking the basics and working up to that. Kind of like checking to see if there is gas in the tank before replacing the engine. | |||
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As I said, do all the troubleshooting first. I hear this story all the time; My rifle won't shoot. Before checking all the blocks. Once you have done all that, it's the barrel. | |||
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Wendell, I've had an experience largely similar to yours but with a new Tikka TX3 rifle in .300 Win Mag, 1:11 twist. To my great anxiety it just wouldn't shoot despite numerous handload combinations ( i.e. different powders, bullet weights / makes ). One day I could shoot a satisfactory group with a particular load only to have that exact load shoot wildly the next. Checked all screws, bedding, scope and rings, scoped the barrel but couldn't detect any abnormality anywhere. In desperation I eventually sent it to True Flite barrels here in NZ asking them to see if they could find any fault. They said the barrel looked fine. Anyway I told them to supply and install a new stainless, fluted, 24 inch, 1:10 twist True Flite barrel which they did promptly. Happily that fixed it and this rifle now is a great shooter. I'm guessing if your silencer is not the issue the barrel could well be the culprit. Hunting.... it's not everything, it's the only thing. | |||
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Try taking the barrel out of the stock and scope off obvisously and giving 3 good whacks with a hammer on the underside about 6 inches in front of the chamber. http://forums.accuratereloadin...3221043/m/1111035152 Then do load development using the OCW method. Mike Legistine actu? Quid scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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it's the can. anything pushing against the muzzle will tune or de-tune a rifle. that's how the Boss system and a barrel tuner works. | |||
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Just brilliant. Had I simply looked at your Sig picture, I could have saved myself about 100 bullets and primers and a lb of powder. I have used the “smack it” method on many items, or the “grab and shake” where appropriate, to fix many ailments in my life. Ima do it now. | |||
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You are right one one point. Anything you add or remove effects the vibrations so, it *Could be the can. I have three other guns, 2 that use the same Saker setup, that shoot great. I have a MagnetoSpeed chronograph that straps to your barrel or can. It improved the accuracy of my 6.5 CM but changes POI by about 6”. Limbsaver makes the rubber Sharpshooter X-Ring Barrel Dampener. I have one on my 260 and put one on this barrel as well to see if it helps. It didn’t. Silencerco makes an ASR mount for this can. I might break down and buy it, but I have 6 guns that use this mount. That gets pricey since muzzle devices are $65+ tax and the mount is $165. If I do that, I can use any one of 3 cans on most of my guns. | |||
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I swapped out the muzzle device for the ASR mount and used my Omega suppressors. Relieved bedding in front and sides of recoil lug. I didn’t hit my gun with a hammer, although, I really wanted to. Loaded up a bunch of 165 & 168 grain with a mild load of Rl-22 and headed to the range. Hornady factory 180 SP - 2 groups .550” & .725” 165 Game King HPBT .280” .675” .735” 168 Nos CC - .340” .360” .690” 180 Nos Accubond .730” .865” .950” Smallest .280” largest .950” but that was an Accubond with the tip missing. I really think it was the way the muzzle device was mating to the can but it could have been the bedding too. Also, I never tried 165 gr bullets. They shoot! Thanks to everyone and their advice. I learned quite a bit from this thread | |||
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I could live with any of those groups for a hunting rig. if you put the old stuff back on the front and it jacks it all up again you'll know were to look... LOL | |||
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Dang - I wanted to get you a Barrel Whackers Anonymous T-Shirt Mike Legistine actu? Quid scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Cans, as some call them, are illegal in this state, so we don't have this kind of distraction to deal with. I can't see the attraction for them. When I pull the trigger, I want to hear the shot. It's what rifles do. | |||
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Torque the action screws then lap the rings, don't assume the mount and rings are not putting uneven stress on the scope tube. | |||
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What state are you in? Sooooo many benefits to shooting or hunting w a can. First, you hear the shot just fine, and you can much easier hear the hit or miss down range. At the range, I don’t mind sitting next to the guy with a can. I hate sitting next to the guy with a brake, or just no can. Hunting, sometimes I miss. Especially Antelope when I drop my rangefinder in the grass somewhere on my stalk. Even with the loud bang … twice, then a third that hit, they just don’t react the same. When was the last time you missed an Antelope and they just stood there? It happens, but not common. Shot a Whitetail buck a few years ago. The does jumped up, looked around then went back to eating. Guiding Aoudad, if I’m spotting Aoudad and looking to see the hit, I’d much rather not be subjected to the deafening sound of an un-suppressed gun. I want to see/hear the hit before he disappears into the junipers or off the ledge. Hard to do with binoculars with your fingers in your ears Move to a free state … for so many reasons. | |||
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That’s always good advice. This scope has been in the same LaRue one piece QD rings for 6 years, so I’m pretty sure it’s good on multiple guns. It’s a solid unit. The other scope is in Leupold MK4 steel rings. It could vary, depending on the picatinny I put it on. I do move the scopes around a bit, so lapping would only work on one gun, not necessarily the others with possibly different picatinny variances. I have gotten good at boresighting and getting it dialed in. Yesterday was a good day with 2 shots to get it dead on. Sometimes it takes a couple more. Ok, sometimes a lot more. Don’t judge me. | |||
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Problem for me is after 6 decades of shooting I don't have the hearing left to hear shot strike or many other sounds that young ears hear. I'm a recent convert to suppressors especially the one on my, dare I mention to dpcd, 7mmWSM, the can on which has a built-in stainless steel muzzle brake. I prefer to hear the shot wop rather than a magnum boom. | |||
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I've never heard a shot strike game. On the range, most use ear muffs. After 20 years at tank gunnery, ears still perfect. Inside the tank it's not bad. Outside; rather loud. Never seen a silence on a hunting rifle. | |||
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You don’t live in a free state. Might be why you have never seen one. My guy in Botswana has cans on most of his guns, Douth Africans use them often, in Europe it seems to be more common than not, they just buy them over the counter. I have shot almost all my game in the last 6 years with suppressed rifles. It’s getting to be very common. If my guns have enough meat on the barrel, I get them threaded. My mountain rifle is too thin to thread, but almost every other one is threaded, except my 375 H&H. I recently bought a Henry 45-70 and a Silencerco Hybrid 45. The idea of a suppressed 45-70 shooting subsonic bullets at pigs really intrigued me. Got my hands on some 410 grain Hornady Sub-X bullets and some Unique. I’m surprised at the accuracy of this gun. The Sub-X are printing nice groups of 1.5-1.75” at 100. Since that’s close to max range with subs, I’m happy as a pig in sheet. As for never hearing a bullet whack an animal, some can hear it, some can’t. Environmental conditions can effect this. Cold still mornings and a 300 yard shot over open fields, hard not to hear it. | |||
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Going to be hard to put cans on my double rifles. Silenced 1874 Sharps? Just no. I think the black powder would gum up the works pretty quick. None for me. | |||
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| Administrator |
I am partially deaf, but I do hear bullets hitting game, very often. I don’t wear ear protection while hunting. | |||
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With subs, you can hear the bullets hit paper down range. That is cool! | |||
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