Hi
I wonder what happens if you cut the lead point of a spft point bullet , when the tip is deformed ? is is going to oppen upp well in games body?or how much the accuracy will improved by removing the deffected lead tip?.
regards
yes

At normal hunting ranges deformed tips due to recoil make little to no difference. Sometimes makes the rounds harder to feed from magazine to chamber.
Cheers...
Con

quote:

I wonder what happens if you cut the lead point of a spft point bullet

Some companys make them that way......they're called protected points.

and if you shoot them fast enough they burn off on their way to the target

I would desagree on that; I've read on a reloading manual (Sierra?) that bullet travel to the target is so fast that the tip cannot melt and even if you put a lighter flame on the lead point of a rifle bullet, you need several seconds to melt it. The time of flight of a rifle bullet to cover 300 meters is usually between 0.32 and 0.50 seconds.

I was just going off personal experience, watching a 50 gr sp bullet smoke through the air on it's way to a jackrabbit in the spotlight, looks just like a tracer. I always imagined that was the lead tip burning away from air friction, but guess I was wrong if SIERRA says so! I've also seen the graphite looking 'comet tails" on targets I've shot with 40 grainers out of 22 centerfire, thought that was melted lead too, but now I know I was wrong because Sierra says so. Thanks

quote:

Originally posted by swheeler:
and if you shoot them fast enough they burn off on their way to the target

I've heard of this. But then, why not? I fired one shot through my hornet and would you believe the barrel had warmed? How in heck can heat pass through steel so fast? So I would imagine a 'real' cartridge might well melt off the exposed lead tip. Beyond that, I have been told that the damaged lead tips (on medium velocity bullets) only effects trajectory at longer ranges due to drag differences.

P.S. when a bullet strikes a solid target it melts its core big time! Actually, it vaporizes some of it. That takes place in how long? Two millionth's of a second?

Oh.... I have been cutting the lead tip off 60gr bullets for my hornet to make them fit the magazine - untill now. I got tired of it! Now I seat them deeper.

Yeah well I had a noodle head come here and inform me that "ballistics" (he meant ballistic tips) stop the barrel from leading up because there is no lead tip, and they are so effective because the plastic melts on the way to the target and leaves this massive hollow point.

I buzzed him off a little after this, during an arguement that he could reliabably hit a cigerette packet at 1000 yards. Cripes, he didn't even use his own reloads, (and I knew who did them.)

And yet I get called an idiot !!

quote:

Originally posted by swheeler:
and if you shoot them fast enough they burn off on their way to the target

Hey swheeler, If you happen to have 10 handy, here is something you(or anyone else) might want to try - no Thingys required.

I found it interesting to leave 5 nicely formed Lead Tips on and remove 5 Tips on another set and then shoot them at 500yds or beyond. You may need a few additional Tipped ones just to get onto the Paper if you don't normally shoot way out yonder. A refrigerator box helps catch the spotters.

Then shoot the Lead Tips and see where they cluster. Change the Target if you desire or mark the holes and see where the Tipless ones Impact.

Best of luck to you guys.

I'm pretty sure that the "trail" that you refer to seeing is not atomized lead but it is the effect of a high speed bullet passing through the air and disrupting the relative humidity present.
I personnaly have only seen this condition where moisture was present in the air.Rare occurance here in Colorado where the air is dry but it does happen.

What would happen is nothing. What would happen with a deformed tip is nothing. Test have been done to evaluate the effect of magazine battering on the tips of bullets and it was found that it had no real world effect. Especially in a hunting context. As long as the damage is forward of the ogive. Damage at the ogive and behind the ogive did have an effect. They went so far as to deform the nose of the bullet with a pair of pliars and found they were still usable.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
......shoot the Lead Tips and see where they cluster. Change the Target if you desire or mark the holes and see where the Tipless ones Impact.....

Nooo..... don't do that! ... Keeping me in suspense I mean! Please share, Hot Core. I won't be able to do this test for myself. For years I have wondered about this.

Good Shootin'

Re; Lead tips melting off:-

quote:

.... I read an article that on a study using high speed photography showing lead tips melting by air friction when fired at velocities over 2800fps.....

Apparently, this happens at velocities over 2600fps.

Very interesting!

Alright,so accuracy issues aside,does removing the lead tips alter expansion characteristics? Anyone ever use the same bullet with and then without on game and see a difference?

til later

Hey 303Guy, I'll PM you so I don't ruin it for everyone else.

quote:

I'm pretty sure that the "trail" that you refer to seeing is not atomized lead but it is the effect of a high speed bullet passing through the air and disrupting the relative humidity present.
I personnaly have only seen this condition where moisture was present in the air.Rare occurance here in Colorado where the air is dry but it does happen.

Snel; When spotlighting rabbits and coyotes in the eastern Mt winters I have seen these trails many times, as far as humidity in that country,it is so dry you electricute yourself just walking across a carpeted floor, so I don't think that's the case.

quote:

Hey swheeler, If you happen to have 10 handy, here is something you(or anyone else) might want to try - no Thingys required.

I found it interesting to leave 5 nicely formed Lead Tips on and remove 5 Tips on another set and then shoot them at 500yds or beyond. You may need a few additional Tipped ones just to get onto the Paper if you don't normally shoot way out yonder. A refrigerator box helps catch the spotters.

Then shoot the Lead Tips and see where they cluster. Change the Target if you desire or mark the holes and see where the Tipless ones Impact.

Best of luck to you guys.

Dang it Hot Core, a test? I haven't even studied for it!

quote:

Originally posted by swheeler:
Dang it Hot Core, a test? I haven't even studied for it!

You can consider it a "POP" Test.

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:
Re; Lead tips melting off:-
Apparently, this happens at velocities over 2600fps.

Very interesting!

It still sounds like a load of crap to me.
So with my .220 Swift at up to 4000 fps. (that's by the end of the 26" barrel), so what is the bullet like at say 400 yards? A hollow point? Why would the bullet maker do lead points for cals that do over 2600 fps?

And re photo's, well I've seen photos of fairies and flying saucers, and bullets. The bullets showed all sorts of smudges. Gas or something in FRONT of the bullet, heaps more at the rear of the bullet. Shock waves, compression crap, who knows. But melting lead??

Sounds like an urban myth to me.

Re. trails thru the air. Again could be various things. Some look like what thay are, whole bullets disintergrating due over spin.
Also may well be vapour, I've seen plenty comming off the wings of jets that loaded up.
Let alone vapour trails off engines and props.

Re "seeing" bullets from behind thru scopes, common enough with pistols and .22RF. Also I've seen many "dots" shooting .308 and .223 on the range. Seems you can see them all the way to the target at many hundreds of yards away.

I don't know if one can see the size of the base of a bullet at 20 or 30x at up to 900 yards, but I've seen "something" small and black looking, heaps of trajectory, disapearing into the target. You can call the shot quite accurately.
Now whether that's the bullet base or some sort of disturbance or shockwave or what I haven't a clue. Hey someone has pinched my scratch head and hide behind the sofa immage.

quote:

It still sounds like a load of crap to me.

Yup. I think so too! I do know that the canopy of the Blackbird gets too hot to touch but that's travelling a tad faster than a bullet and 'too hot to touch' doesn't melt lead. I haven't seen these pictures - couldn't find any on the net.

quote:

Originally posted by JAL:
Sounds like an urban myth to me.

Sounds like something that Myth busters on Sky could have a bit of fun with.
I've heard of this, but don't know enough to venture an opinion one way or t'other.
Steve

Another consideration is time. At 2600 fps it doesn't take long for a bullet to get out there.
And air friction heat would take some time I guess.

So if lead melting or gassing off causes a vapor trail, I will never see a trail if I shoot a ballistic tipped bullet?

quote:

I'm pretty sure that the "trail" that you refer to seeing is not atomized lead but it is the effect of a high speed bullet passing through the air and disrupting the relative humidity present.

True
Its a vapor trail

One of the "Stab and Blast" magazines had an article on something similiar to this aboout 8-10 years ago and I don't remember the mag.

It was a little different test in that they removed the lead pointed point and also they would bend the tips to one side and conduct accuracy tests. If I remember correctly the results were that at ranges under 150 yards or so there was no effect for the point removal or deforminty. However as the distance increased beyond 200 yards the effect of the deformation begin to be apparent in the accuracy area.

quote:

However as the distance increased beyond 200 yards the effect of the deformation begin to be apparent in the accuracy area.

That points to no lead tip melting. I just don't want to dismiss the idea out of hand! But think of this, a bullet with a muzzle velocity of say 3050fps has a ME of 980J. At 110m it has a velocity of 2050fps and an energy of 450J. This happens in 0.14 seconds. Plenty of heat generated to melt a tiny bit of jagged lead tip of. But most, if not all that heat is in the 'vapour' trail. To give an idea of how much energy 980J is, it's the heat given off by a single bar heater in one second. 1000W element. A joule (J) is 1000wattseconds. (The power given off by that bullet is 2.8 kilowatt).

Can't provide info on the lead tip melting....but Find it hard to believe....However I can speak to performance. Used to shoot 265 gr spbt in my 06. I would cut the lead tip off when shooting Louisiana Deer....small hole in, much larger hole (fist size) coming out...bullets with the tip left on did not leave an exit hole as large. A lot of variables....but I would say "no" to the tip melting. (all reloads is a ruger 22" barrel and I had a tendency to push for accuracy and fps at that time...

I had the lead tips of Varmint Nightmare bullets contaminate my moly media and bowl.

I am wary of lead tips right now.