I removed the standard expander ball and ran a round thru that way, and I still get 5-6+ thou runout.

I just disassembled the die, fiddled w/ it a bit, put it back together, and now I'm down to 5-6 thou run out _with_ the expander ball on?!?

Help!!

First, I wouldn't worry to much about a couple thou runout on a factory chamber, you're lucky that's all you have in some cases.

Second. Get RID of the expander ball. If you're using bushings, you don't need balls and the balls are most likely the source of your runout. I use Redding dies and use a bushing size the reduces the neck by 0.003". I turn my cases just to even things up, NOT to fit the chamber. Usually only a half thou or so is enough to clean up the necks. Seat a bullet then mic the neck and get a bushing 3 thou smaller.

You will also have to use a full length resizer screw down so it presses against the shell holder hard and takes out all the slop in the press linkage pins. Doing this will square up your cases again, and it's the only way I've found to do it. I can guarantee this probably will open up another can of worms because doing what I said to do is a REAL controversial subject. This is how I do it and I find it works but also listen to what others have to say. Use the search function to find other links to "Case runout"

I use Forster Ultra, Redding and RCBS Competition and Wilson straight line seaters, Redding and Wilson bushing type sizers, Hornady, RCBS, Redding, Wilson and Lee full length sizers, and a few Lyman tossed in there somewhere.

Once you get the cases straight in a full length sizer then you can use the other sizer to full advantage.

Get a set of Stoney comparators and a set of Reddin Competiton shell holders for the case head sizes you will be loading for. Take a unsized fired case and measure with the comparator to find the lenght of THAT RIFLES chamber. Full length resize the way I said above, then re-measure the case. The difference is the headspace of THAT CHAMBER ONLY. I will bet you will find several thou difference in the measurements. The difference is, basically, the built in tolerance levels between the rifle chamber reamers and the die chamber reamers. Pick a competition shell holder that is one or two thousands less than the measured amount and use THAT shell holder for sizing THAT cartridge. If the difference is 0.008" between the fired case and resized case then use the 0.006" shell holder. Doing this will fit the sized case to THAT rifles chamber. This is a very old trick brought into the 21 century. You will also have to check close. I have a Redding .223 neck sizing bushing die that won't work this way and a Redding FULL LENGTH 22-250 bushing die that will work this way. all my other caliber full length dies will work this way. The reason is the NECK SIZER bushing die isn't touching the shoulder even with a standard shell holder.

I can also guarantee that even it you polish your sizer buttons you will get large runouts when you use them. (Another statement to get the hackles up) Another way I avoid runout is to full length resize, then run the cases over a Sinclair neck turning sizer mandrel I've polished down to a couple of thou below bullet size. You still have to watch because the case neck isn't supported and it can induce runout also but less that an expander ball.

Keep asking questions and watch the posts. Do a search for the information you want. Subscribe to Precision Shooting, get to know the benchrest boys.

I've been doing quite a bit of testing during the past 2 years using the latest in measuring devices and re-evaluating a lot of what I learned over the years. Some of the information I developed gets right into the near and dear and causes more flaming than Mephistopholes himself, but ifr it works for me, I don't sweat the small stuff. If you watch and read the publications the same information will come out in time.

Martindog

The runout is measured usin a Sinclair concentricity guage (older style, not the new one w/ ball bearings). Like I said, case neck runout varies up to 10-12 thou, and the loaded round runout does likewise.

I've been reloading about three years so far, and for better or worse, I jumped right into the thick of things w/ a set of Redding Competition dies in .223. Actually takes me a while to think about what the heck I have to do w/ a regular set of dies. I have to F/L size the .223 stuff to feed in my AR, and I F/L size for the .260 just because it's a beater/brush hunting gun. .223 for the bolt gun was supposed to be neck sized only, w/ no expander ball, like I'd love to do w/ the .308, but the darn ejector plunger thunks the case mouth agains the chamber/lug recesses on the way out, leaving a nice little flat spot that neck sizing w/o an expander ball won't solve.

I guess I'll have to tinker more w/ lubing the insides of the case necks. I have a can of motor mica sitting around that I've never used (never had problems w/ the expander balls before) that I'll have to try. Likewise, I think I'll try to get the carbide expander ball that 'floats' around the decapping rod for Redding dies. Worth a try, I guess.

FWIW, I'm trying to avoid un-necessary BR techniques if possible. I went for the full meal deal on my .223 Rem 700 VS, and the Rem 40XB .220 Swift (even pulled the ejector plunger to eliminate any 'stresses' that might cause unsquare case heads, etc), short of getting an arbor press and hand dies, and honestly, the ends did not IMHO justify the means. It took me 2-3 times as long farting around w/ this-that and another-thing, and *maybe* shaved 1/10th of an inch off my groups. An awful lot of work to go from 0.5 to 0.4. I'm honestly not convinced of the benefits for a factory gun. Hell, the chamber that Remington cut in this thing has a 175gr SMK jumping 155 thou to the rifling when seated to magazine length! I can barely even keep the bullet in the case and touch the rifling!!

Sorry, still ripped about the chamber in this thing. Had to vent mometarily.

Keep 'em coming!

Monte

[This message has been edited by milanuk (edited 04-19-2002).]

Lets say that you have a case mouth, that has been ran thru a ideal (i.e. perfect) sizing die, neck turned, etc. had all the Benchrest accuracy voodoo done to it. If you put it in a concentricity guage/tool, which usually consists of some arrangement to hold a case back against a stop while rotating it in either a vee-block or ball-bearing set up, w/ a dial indicator guage that reads out in 0.001" increments (or smaller). Anyway, if you put a perfect case in one of these tools, you should not see any appreciable deflection of the needle on the dial indicator. In the real world, a little bit is inevitable, as you can only rotate a case so far before you need to press down on it w/ one finger and move the finger you were originally rotating it w/ back and start rotating it again. It may not feel like it moves, but the needle will tell the truth.

Also in the real world, there is no such thing as 'perfect' brass. But some stuff can come pretty damn close. Generally, Lapua brand brass is about the best, and w/ sufficient work, like running thru special dies, turning necks, etc. normal American factory brass like Winchester can come pretty close for about 1/2-1/3 the cost, but there is some labor involved.

Due to normal machining 'tolerances' aka slop, the chamber in your gun may not be 100% true w/ the bore, or otherwise. Hence, you may pull a fired case from a gun and have a couple thousandths (0.001-0.002") of run out already.

Then you run it thru a resizing die. The better dies like the Redding Competition Neck sizing die, and others, only touch the neck of the case, thereby minimzing the portion of the case they screw w/ (there are other benefits of neck sizing, but thats a separate issue). Or, you can use custom 'hand-dies' which instead of being threaded into a press (7/8-14 thread is pretty coarse thread, and another potential source of misalignment, and therefore, runout), are put together like putting a candy in an plastic Easter egg, and then squeezed w/ an arbor press that ensures perfect straight alignment (w/i machiniing tolerances) and therefore minimal or no runout.

Same thing for seating the bullet. Now the object is to get the bullet seated in the case, and aligned as perfectly as possible to the centerline of the case as possible. Again, there are manufacturing tolerances to consider. Good as modern bullets are, they are still not quite 100% perfectly concentric. Any small imperfection adds to the error, and increases the runout.

And why exactly is runout bad? Well, rumor has it that if the case has 'excessive' runout, the bullet may not fire straight and true into the rifling of the barrel when it releases from the case. It has increased opportunity to hit the throat cock-eyed, and develop a bit of yaw, or wobble. Wobble is not good; think of it as when you spiraled that football as a kid for a long bomb. A wobbly ball was less likely to make it all the way to the end zone, and may not have been right on the numbers of the receiver.

Reality is a little different; kind of weird in fact. For the most part, the *average* factory hunting rifle may not be capable of showing the difference between a bullet seated in a case that has a buttload of runout or not. Hell, most shooters wouldn't know it. But since you're here, and asking questions, we'll assume you don't fall into that category!

Some guns can still shoot pretty well, even w/ excessive runout. The Remington 700VS in .308 Winchester that I'm having this problem w/ is still shooting 1/2-3/4" groups @100yds w/ 10+ thousandths runout (about 4-5 times too much), and 1-1/2 -2" groups at 300yds. Sometimes the whole yaw thing is over rated. For instance, I am using 175gr Sierra MatchKings, a long, heavy bullet (relatively speaking). Bullets like this (long and heavy for the caliber) sometimes tend to shoot so-so close in (100-200yds) and then start shooting better and better (proportionately to the range) as the yardage increases, because the bullet tends to dampen the yaw by itself, given enough time. This is some times referred to as the bullet having enough time to 'go to sleep'.

In the end, yes my gun is shooting fine by some standards, lousy by others. I'm trying to make it shoot as well as possible w/o spending more time and trouble than its worth. I all to often get caught up in the whole runout-concentricity-etc. whirlwind, only to get *badly* outshot by my neighbor who F/L sizes his rounds on an RCBS RockChucker press w/ RCBS F/L dies, an old RCBS scale and powder measure, and he never worries about all this crap. Is some of it luck? I keep telling myself that it is, but in the end, it the nut btwn the Peltors that makes the shot, not the runout

HTH,

Monte

With a Redding neck size die I was getting what I considered too much case neck stretch and runout after sizing. I tried various lubes and polished the expander ball meticulously. Problem was decreased but not eliminated.

Finally, and out of frustration, I tried one of the $25 Lee collet neck sizing die sets.

Life was better. It is an inexpensive experiment. You may be surprised. I know I sure as hell was....

Regards,

~Holmes

quote:

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You will also have to use a full length resizer screw (sic) down� Doing this will square up your cases again, and it's the only way I've found to do it.

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O yeah,

quote:

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it's controversial

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I of course wonder, rhetorically, how a Sinclair concentricity gage can measure anything other than axial runout. After all, the perpendicular alignment between the casehead/cartidge body isn't within the scope of the instrument.

The Sinclair gage on page 14 of the 2002A Sinclair catalog measures the concentricity of the neck (and axial misalignment of the bullet and case). Using the Sinclair gage to measure the "banana effect" (which the Neco gage evidently CAN do), is expecting data which is not relevant.

The original post stated

quote:

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� after firing w/ about 1-2 thou runout.

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If 10+ thou is measurable after sizing, something else is going on. And Redding's response is ????

milanuk stated

quote:

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� and *maybe* shaved 1/10th of an inch off my groups. An awful lot of work to go from 0.5 to 0.4.

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Giving credit where credit is due, every, EVERY EVERY recent BR match was won with way less than that. Sometimes a very small portion of that 1/10 inch separates winner from second place, as you know.

Just the other day I loaded 21 rounds of .300 Wby mag using the Lee collet die for neck sizing and the Forster benchrest seater for bullet seating. I had one cartridge that measured .002" runout and everything else measured .001" or less. These were measured on the bullet.

One bit of warning, however. The Lee dies I have purchased have not been finished to the extent that the Reddings are. To get mine to function properly I had to polish the collet and collet sleeve with wet/dry sandpaper and then I applied a little lithium grease. After this touchup they have worked perfectly and I really like not having to lube the case.

You were one of the those who caused me to investigate the Lee collet die. My thanks for your input.

Now, I too have a few hundred dollars worth of Redding dies sitting in a back drawer looking pretty....

I was so impressed with the results, I have ordered additional dies in other calibres.

Thanks again and good shooting.

Regards,

~Holmes

TIA,

Monte

Neck sizing is controlled by the diameter of the inner mandrel and a long tailed, four fingered collet. As the case enters the die the shellholder contacts the tail/base of the collet pushing it up into the die. At the top of the stroke, the collet's fingers bottom out against a stop at the top of the die. When it bottoms out against this stop, it compresses the collet's fingers against the case neck and squeezes it down. Sizing is controlled by the inner mandrel then, which is essentially incompressible. Lee equips their dies with a mandrel that provides about .001" grip on a loaded round. If you want more neck tension, you can polish the mandrel in some emery cloth or you can order undersized mandrels for $5.00 directly from Lee.

The difference between the a bushing die system (e.g., Redding, Wilson) and the Lee is that the bushing squeezes on the exterior of the neck, but there is nothing on the interior to arrest the ammount of sizing (air, unlike a steel mandrel, is highly compressible). If your necks are non-concentric, the non-concentricity is transferred to the interior of the neck. That's why Redding includes the expander ball to "iron" it back out on the ram's downstroke. Ideally the expander should float, but if necks are way out of whack, I'm not sure it does much good. To maximize the die's potential, it is best to neck turn cases to the point where they are concentric going in. While your fireformed are concentric on the outside, they still could be lop sided on the interior. Turning necks to a consistent thickness allows the bushing to size the neck evenly around the entire circumference while still maintaining a concentric interior.

Bushing dies are great tools but they do have their quirks. Additionally, when brass is mixed (with resultant different neck thicknesses between lots/brands), you will need specific bushings for each -- otherwise you resulatnat neck tension will differ between brands/lots. You can quickly run up an extra $30-40 in bushings with that system. That's another reason why it pays to turn necks to a standard thickness (or at least limit your loads to one brand/lot of brass), then you'll only need one or two bushings, depending on neck hardness or whether or not you are shooting moly coated bullets. Again, Lee's mandrels are $5.00 per, and one or two extra will cover all of your needs, regardless of your neck thickness.

Hope this helps.

Martindog

[This message has been edited by Martindog (edited 04-19-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Martindog (edited 04-19-2002).]

I've used every brand of die available and have a drawer full I can pick and chose from. I use Lee collets for my 17 Rem and a .223 that are very picky about runout and which seating die I use. The groups go from less than 1/2" to over 1" just by changing seating dies, all else being equal. RCBS gives me up to 6 thou run out and LEE stays around 2 thou. That is not the case with all the Lee collet dies I have. I don't spend anymore time checking it out than necessary. If I shoot 5 5 shot groups and it repeats every time then I can be pretty sure it will continue and it is time to go on to something else.

I've spent a lot of time learning what works and what does what and had a wealth of teachers leading me along the way. I experiment all the time trying new things and new ways. Things that work I keep using, things that don't I just put away for future reference, who knows when they will be needed. We all know just how cantankerous this sport can be. What works one day may or maynot the next and much of what I read has apples and pomegranates being compared. Keep an open mind. Last time looked, I don't believe you were there when the experiments were going on, so you can't comment on the results. I don't put anyting in these posts that I haven't checked out thoroughly and have repeated enough times to be confident it works and whether I believe or not what I read on the posts, I don't make comments to the contrary. To my way of thinking that is like calling a person a liar. It isn't necessarily consider good form to say a person is misinformed unless you happened to be standing where he was when it all went down. I notice quite a lot of that going on in every forum I read. Some a lot worse than others.

Martindog, you explained the workings of the collet die really well. I can't add anything.

milanuk, give the Lee Collet die a try. They're not that expensive. As I stated earlier, though, I highly recommend that you polish the inner workings to get them to function at their very best. You may find some burrs on the opening of the collet sleeve which need to be removed.

Thanks a bunch,

Monte

The part where I lubed the case necks better and polished the expander ball w/ steel wool made the pass back thru the neck much, much easier.

The bad news is that the die is still giving a lot of runout, and the expander ball really doesn't seem to be the contributing factor. I may have to borrow my neighbors RCBS dies and try them (heck, I gave them to him a while back before I ever thought I'd get a .308... go figure!)

Thanks,

Monte

quote:

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Originally posted by 243winxb:
At the Redding web site, if i remember correctley?? When sizing the neck down more than .010" using the bushing dies something happens.

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"Something' is that when you are sizing the neck more than 0.010 in one step, sometimes you can end up w/ a case neck size *smaller* than the bushing size. Weird, but I had it happen w/ the .220 Swift. Don't think that applies here, as I'm sizing down 0.004-0.005 max.

I will have to try to give Redding a buzz, though, and pick their brain.

Thanks,

Monte

Have you tried sizing a different brand of case? Or another Winchester case from a known different lot?

I'm just wondering if the interior of the case mouth is not concentric with the exterior. This might cause the problems you are experiencing.

You'll be very pleased with the operation and results of the Lee Collet dies. Even though they aren't as expensive as some dies, they make truly excellent ammo. And for that matter, Lee's "perfect powder measure" meters every bit as well (better in many cases) than the big dollar measures, but costs less than 25 bucks!

Take care,

Dan Newberry
green 788

Regards, Matt.

Anyway, these dies ( the F/L sizing die, anyway) spit out some flat outstanding brass!!! I lubed up the outside of the cases w/ Imperial Sizing Die was, and the inside of the necks w/ motor mica on an RCBS nylon bristle brush, and went to town. Cases came out w/ about 1-2 thou runout!! My vaunted Redding Competition Neck sizers did only slightly better, about 1 thou or less, sometimes as much as 2 (rarely) in other calibers.

I'm going to go ahead and leave the bullets in the 25 loaded rounds I have already, and then load up some virgin brass sized w/ these dies and see how they shoot. Hopefully it will make a difference, for the better.

Thanks,

Monte

I know it may sound like heresy to some, but I *guarantee* I can load ammo with my Lee dies, and unassuming little RCBS "partner" press as good as anything being put together by the higher dollar systems. I do understand extra money being spent in the interest of saving time on reloading, but I have not noticed the higher dollar dies making noticeably better ammo than the standard stuff.

There are many things we buy simply because good marketing convinced us that we needed them. Once we have those items, if they do in fact work reasonably well, we are likely to recommend that item to others--often oblivious to the fact that equal (or sometimes better!) performance can be had for less money.

I've seen folks sink over 100 bucks into powder measures that barely if at all keep up with the precision of the Lee "Perfect Powder Measure," which sells for around 25 dollars.

There are also the extremes some folks go to to ensure consistency of their loads, such as weighing each case (not at all necessary), primer pocket uniforming (get decent brass and this isn't necessary either), and obsessing over lot to lot differences in loading components (if your load is optimized, minor differences won't bother you).

I do think flash hole deburring is a good idea. Neck turning should only be necessary in limited instances. Again, good brass will likely negate the need.

I shot another two inch group the other day with my Savage 10 FP, at a range of 600 yards. The Winchester brass wasn't prepped beyond deburring the flash hole. I didn't weigh the cases or uniform the primer pockets. And worse yet, I hadn't even tumbled the once fired brass--it was actually kind of dirty! I gave a synopsis on the development of the load I used at www.snipershide.com in the handloading forum. It was 43.6 grains of IMR 4895, the 168 grain Sierra Matchking, Winchester brass, and Federal Gold Medal primers. I can actually vary the charge of this load from 43.3 to 43.9 grains of powder, and still hold MOA or better to 600 yards. That's a resilient load, which is what the OCW load development plan allows you to develop.

Anyway, good luck, and keep the good news coming!

How long can you load and still magazine feed, by the way? Just curious...

Dan Newberry
green 788

You make an interesting point. I have noticed what you're talking about. The only thing I can attribute it to is a difference in the hardening of the case necks. If you're using mostly cases from once or twice fired brass, and the occasional piece of "work hardened" brass comes along, it may put up more resistance to the bullet when it is being seated. To what degree this affects accuracy, I don't know.

You can reduce this effect (but probably never totally eliminate it) by being sure you're dealing with the same lot of brass, on the same sequence of firings.

If you're loading for extreme accuracy, and you encounter a case which resists the bullet more than the rest, set it aside to use as a fouler or sighter, just in case. Do the same with a cartridge in which the bullet seems to go into too easily.

I use a very light RCBS "Partner" press. With the lighter presses, you get a better feel for what's going on when you're sizing and seating.

Thanks for the post, it's an interesting point to discuss.

Dan Newberry
green 788

Also the collet dies come with a "loads the most accurate ammo or your money back" guarentee.

Second, if one elects to deprime using a universal depriming die and removes the stem and button from one's resizing die when resizing, does this create un-due neck pressure? (It would seem that as long as it was uniform, it would not impact accuracy.)

The load mentioned above using 43+grs of 4895 exceeds my old Sierra Manual's max load by nearly a grain. Work up to it if you would like to try it. Ku-dude

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I � have been using those techniques for a very long time, but what I said about squaring up brass was learned over 40 years ago and I have used it ever since whenever I have problems with case runout. It works for me pretty much on a continuous basis. I don't analyze it to much, it works, I do it when I need to, you can to or not, I don't much care.

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quote:

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Last time I time looked, I don't believe you were there when the experiments were going on, so you can't comment on the results.� To my way of thinking that is like calling a person a liar.

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I would address this issue with makatak, offline, but he doesn't show anyway to do that. So...

I just completed a small survey, by eMail, of some major barrel and action makers along with some nationally known B/R shooters and they all concur that it is unlikely that resizing bent cases will remove all consequential runout of the loaded cartridges.

[This message has been edited by centerpunch (edited 05-03-2002).]

I don't put my email addresses out there for the simple reason I don't want to read a bunch of ignorance coming from someone who feels the need to prove himself or what he thinks and does. My attitude is this is MY computer and MY phone, and MY house. If I don't want to answer the door or the phone, or look at someones ugly face, I don't.

I said what I said, I have tested it to my satisfaction, I don't give a flying fu** whether you believe it or not, or use it or not. It is always your privilage to do what ever you want, think however you think and be as smart or as ignorant as you are capable of being. Of course, you can't be anymore than you are, why should I expect anything different. Go argue with a mirror, then you can win all the arguments and feel superior and safe in your world. I guarantee you don't want to come into mine.