I did it today, but don't quite know how it happened. 1910 avg for 5 shots with very little shot to shot variation) I was firing 27 grs of LIL'GUN (starting load) under a 240 gr Horn XTP thru a Contender with a 17" barrel. The chrono was OK, as I shot some 22 Match stuff thru it and the velocities were around 1010fps. No expansion probs and the CCI 350 primers looked good. That little gun was worse than my 416 Encore-lighter, too. 5lbs 3oz. I pulled the bullets from the 2 other loads and they were just as loaded-no errors.
Is this possible? I know that LIL'GUN will give nice velocities in a handgun length barrel, but this much from a carbine???

I once read that velocity would increase 33% from a handgun to a rifle.I believe the barrel length was 6"handgun and 18"rifle.But even at that if a handgun shot at 1200fps a rifle would only at about 1590fps.I use LiL'Gun in my .357mag handgun at a velocity of 1500fps(158gr bullet), based on the info above a rifle with an 18" barrel would have a velocity of about 1995fps.In my reloading manual it looks like the .45 colt may be about 200fps slower than the .357mag.

To get that kind of velocity the pressures had to be way up - close to the 454 Casull which is 62,000 psi. Only thing I can think of that would raise the pressure that much is the bullets could have been pushed down into the cases - what were the OAL and what should they have been? You might want to look at the headspace of your Contender - you had to be putting a lot more pressure on that gun than it was designed for and the frame or the pivot? under the barrel could have stretched.

Using the same loads for both handgun and rifle I get the following velocities:

.256 Winchester:
Handgun (8-1/2") 2057
Rifle (23") 2401

30 Carbine:
Handgun (7-1/2") 1703
Rifle (23") 2136

.357 Magnum:
Handgun (2-1/2") 1147
Heandgun (6-1/2") 1222
Rifle (18-1/2") 1678

.44 Magnum:
Handgun (7-1/2") 1607
Rifle (18-1/2") 1919

.45ACP:
Handgun (5") 913
Rifle (18-1/2") 1019

Steve, that makes me feel a little better. I'm going to back off a bit and try it again.
CMcDermott, I know--sounds really high. The bullets are seated to the cannelure and given a medium crimp. Go figure. Lockup is still very crisp, but I'm gonna back off 2 grains and try it again..

Just had another idea - weigh one of your bullets. If you had some 300 grain XTP's (you could have grabbed the wrong box, or the factory could have mis-labeled) instead of 240 grain XTP's what you described is what would happen. Hodgdon lists 20.2 gr of Lil' Gun as the max load for the 300 grain Speer JFP (they don't list a 300 grain XTP load), 27.0 grain is the starting load for a 240 XTP, but would be way too much for a 300 grain bullet.

If you are really loading 27gr of L'il Gun in the 45 Colt, you are waaaay over. The latest Hornady manual doesn't list L'il Gun for the 240gr XTP, but the 300gr max load maximum is 17.7gr. Where did you get your loading data? Not trying to be a smart aleck about it, but maybe you misread what you were seeing.
L'il Gun is a little faster than H110/296 and the max for that powder is 21.7gr. You should find the max for 240gr XTP's should be around 20/21gr. This is from my use of L'il Gun in 45 Colt for Ruger Blackhawks. I'm glad you paid attention to what you were seeing and pulled the bullets from those rounds you loaded.

quote:

Originally posted by m stevenson:
If you are really loading 27gr of L'il Gun in the 45 Colt, you are waaaay over. The latest Hornady manual doesn't list L'il Gun for the 240gr XTP, but the 300gr max load maximum is 17.7gr. Where did you get your loading data? Not trying to be a smart aleck about it, but maybe you misread what you were seeing.
L'il Gun is a little faster than H110/296 and the max for that powder is 21.7gr. You should find the max for 240gr XTP's should be around 20/21gr. This is from my use of L'il Gun in 45 Colt for Ruger Blackhawks. I'm glad you paid attention to what you were seeing and pulled the bullets from those rounds you loaded.

Say what?

240 to 250 grain bullets:
Lil'Gun From 22.0 grains to 27.7 grains
CCI-300 Primer

300 grain bullets:
Lil'Gun From 15.0 grains to 20.2 grains
CCI-300 Primer

Sounds a bit high but here are the loads from Hogdon:
http://www.hodgdon.com/data/pistol/45coltlil.php

That velocity isn't terribly unbelievable. Let's say that load does 1500 fps from a 7 1/2" revolver, put it in a 10" contender, and it'll do 1600 fps, add 30 fps/inch, for 7 more inches get's you to another 200 fps, or 1800 fps. So maybe you were loaded a little hot, and that got you another 100 fps.

I've loaded 200 gr cast bullets to 1700 fps from a 10" 357 mag and 1900 fps from a 10" 357 maximum contender, so getting high velocity from straight pistol cases isn't that hard.

Lil'gun in the 44 mag in a rifle gets 1850 fps from a 240 gr bullet. the Colt holds more powder, but has a similar expansion ratio, so a 240 grainer in a contender bbl from a colt case is using pressure levels about like the 44 Mag.

quote:

I've loaded 200 gr cast bullets to 1700 fps from a 10" 357 mag and 1900 fps from a 10" 357 maximum contender, so getting high velocity from straight pistol cases isn't that hard.

My 18 1/2" 357 needs 36,000 psi to drive a 190 gr. to 1720 fps with Lil Gun, as measured by a strain gage. The SAAMI spec is 35,000 psi.

Getting back to the original topic, there is little doubt that a 45 colt can hit 1910 fps, but at what pressure? Quickload thinks that 34,600 psi would be required to reach that velocity with WW296 powder (Lil Gun hasn't been added to the QL library yet). That might be safe in an FA, but a Contender ain't no FA.

The original pressure spec for the 357 mag was 45 kpsi, it has subsequently been reduced in leu of very small framed revolvers that can't handle those pressures.

The contender can handle 55kspi in 357 mag / 223 case head sized rounds, though anyone who chooses to do so should do it at their own risk. I won't say what loads I used to achieve those velocities.

I should have also added that the t/c barrel has such a long throat that I was able to load the 200 gr cast bullet out to where only the gas check was seated in the case, though the extra powder capacity didn't produce any advantage over crimping in the rear lube groove. With the rounds loaded as such, the won't chamber in any 357 mag revolver.

FredJ, that's where I got my info, the Hodgdon site. I've dropped it down to 26 grs to work my way up from there, so we'll see what happens. I'll post velocities when I shoot 'em

quote:

Originally posted by Paul H:
The original pressure spec for the 357 mag was 45 kpsi

The contender can handle 55kspi in 357 mag / 223 case head sized rounds, though anyone who chooses to do so should do it at their own risk. I won't say what loads I used to achieve those velocities.

Sorry to hijack old4x4's thread, but the original spec for the 357 magnum was in CUP, not PSI. There's no straight forward way to convert CUP to PSI for pistol cartridges that I am aware of. Denton Bramwell's conversion formula only applies to rifle cartridges. It gives questionable results when you try to apply it to pistol cartridges.

I doubt if the 357 was ever loaded to 45,000 psi. 45,000 psi would drive a 158 gr. bullet to 1700 fps from a revolver, if you could even stuff enough powder in to create 45,000 psi. I think the original advertisements for the 357 claimed 1500 fps from a long barreled revolver -- they also claimed to be able to shoot through engine blocks. A long barreled revolver needs only 26,000 psi to hit 1500 fps with WW296, according to Quickload.

I don't mean to pick on you, Paul. It's just that there is a popular myth that it is OK to hot load the 357 because they used to do it in the old days. The truth is that powders like WW296 and Lil Gun allow us to surpass the original ballistics of the 357 at the current 35,000 psi spec.