Bullets for Buffalo by Brian Gallup

Dangerous game bullets are almost like religion, You gotta’ have faith.



Hunters don’t like to take a chance on a new bullet when they stand face to face with a cape buffalo. It’s just too dangerous. Most buffalo hunters start out with an expert’s advice on a proven bullet and  never change. “If it works don’t fix it”.


When I experiment with a new bullets on a cape buffalo I like to be backed up by a seasoned PH who carries a 458 or bigger and knows how to use it. With that approach I have killed Cape buffalo with a variety of bullets from 300 grain Cup Point Solids to 700 grain Peregrine Bush Masters. 


In years past, I believed that a bullet’s terminal performance was all about the numbers like bullet diameter, weight, velocity, sectional density, energy and Taylor’s Knockdown Formula. But, I came to realized that there was more to putting a big animal in the freezer than arithmetic.


Fortunately, in recent years, there were a few forward thinking hunters, and innovators who figured out how to incorporate the significant factors of tissue damage and penetration into the terminal performance of a bullet and make it work to the fullest on every shot.


It’s a fascinating story. First, these innovators changed the profile of solid, non expanding Dangerous Game (DG) bullets. The main characters in this story in the USA are Michael McCourry of B&M Rifles and Cartridges and Sam Rose from South Carolina. They did most the heavy lifting over a decade of testing prototype bullets on buffalo in Africa and Australia, and on test media in their own facility. Michael said, “I started the project when a hippo tried to bite me”. 


The goal was to find out what profile of monolithic solid bullet would cause the straightest, deepest penetration with a permanent wound channel. They found out early in their testing that the traditional round nosed solid was not the best.


Working closely with three top manufactures, Cutting Edge Bullets , SSK Industries and North Fork Bullets, the result was a superior dangerous game solid. It’s called the BBW #13 Solid.
It features a 13 degree straight ogive and a wide flat meplat (front of the bullet) that is 67% of bullet diameter. This specific configuration penetrated deeper and straighter than many others tested.


North Fork and Cutting Edge Bullets manufacture this bullet. North Fork also makes it in a Cup Point version that leaves an even bigger wound channel but still penetrates straight and deep. (The only DG bullet with comparable terminal performance to the Cup Point, that I know of, is the Peregrine Bush Master, made in South Africa. The NF Cup Point Solid and the Peregrine Bush Master are an excellent blend of solid and expanding bullet characteristics.)


I have gotten four one shot kills and not one problem on mature Cape buffalo with the BBW #13 solid in a 300 grain, .375 HH, a 450 grain, .500-110Winchester and a 650 grain, .577 NE. The terminal performance was always the same, deep, straight penetration through meat and bone. If I lined my shot up right, the BBW #13 goes straight through the buffalo’s heart from almost any angle. That’s as good as it gets in a dangerous game solid bullet.


The next chapter in the BBW #13 bullet story is where it gets real interesting. For every BBW #13 Solid, Michael wanted an expanding bullet with a matching point of impact. (POI).


The idea was not to just make a better expanding bullet. Michael and Sam wanted an entirely new level of performance. Their ingenuity and perseverance resulted in an amazing bullet.


Called The Raptor and produced by Cutting Edge Bullets, it is a monolithic bullet designed to change configuration after two inches of penetration. The top portion of the bullet blows off into six blades that move away from the main wound channel in a star pattern creating massive tissue damage. 


I will use Michael’s words to explain how he duplicated the POI for each matching solid bullet.


“ Brian, I wanted to take the solid and make the exact same bullet a Hollow Point. My theory was that the length of bullet and exact bearing surface was just as important to the POI as weight, and in some cases more important. It was theory before testing as this had not been investigated before. In testing, it panned out exactly as planned. With the same loads the Raptor and Solid were in the same hole with every single caliber/cartridge combo.


Doing pressure work, ‘Weight Equals Pressure’, and since the Raptors are lighter, their pressure is lower. This gives the Raptor more velocity. POI for the Raptor is 1/2- 3/4 of an inch higher that the solid at 50 yards. Very acceptable POI for Dangerous Game. The velocity increase is 100-150 fps higher than the same solid.”


For each Raptor bullet there is a pointed polymer tip that the you can snap into the hexagon hollow point to enhance the external ballistics ( bullet flight.) Michael says that the polymer tip will also enable the Raptor to penetrate further before the blades blow off and go into action.


In 2012 Sam and his hunting mates tested the Raptor in Australia and Africa killing over 200 buffalo. The bullet was a complete success and always produced “uncommonly quick kills” with many “bang flops” reported. 


I had the same results on three mature buffalo with the Raptor bullet in Africa this year. I hit all three broadside in the center of the shoulder at about 40 meters with a 410 grain, 500 caliber Raptor fired at a modest 1,940 fps. Each buffalo reacted the same way. They just shuddered for an instant like they had been electrocuted, then took a couple of wobbly steps and went down.
I was hunting with my friend Pieter Kriel of Mkulu Safaris. It took us three hours of tracking and stalking to get close to the first old buffalo we wanted. I was tired and shaky when I finally got a shot at under 40 meters.  Sometimes, when I squeeze off a shot at close range on a buffalo, everything just goes into slow motion for me. In the instant during recoil this buffalo didn’t appear to react. He was motionless. For that moment, I though I’d missed! Usually a buffalo will lurch, turn and run when hit square in the shoulder, but not this one. Time stood still before the beast stumbled and crashed to the ground. I turned and looked at Pieter who seemed a little surprised too. 
“Wow”, I said.  
“Lekker!” He answered.


At the skinning house we found massive internal tissue damage. The main shank of the .50 caliber Raptor went deep into the shoulder, missing the heart by about six inches, but one of the rotating blades severed a large artery close to the heart. The blades also tore up a lot of lung tissue. Pieter and the skinners said they had never seen damage like that from a single round. I was especially impressed considering that I had loaded the 410 grain Raptor to just 1,940 fps. It should be pushed about 200 fps faster but my old break-open, single shot rifle wouldn’t stand that stiff of a load.


I hit each of the next two bulls broadside in the centre of the shoulder with the 410 grain .500 caliber Raptor, and each one staggered and went down as uneventfully as did the first one.


So, I am a believer. The Cutting Edge BBW #13 Raptor is an outstanding DG bullet that definitely punches above its weight class. 





Retired in BC, Canada, Brian recalls that his first formal hunting trip was with his father in 1958, for pronghorn antelope in southern Alberta, Canada. He and his wife Sandy have lived and hunted in some pretty remote places, including the MacKenzie River Valley in Northern Canada. They now spend more time in South Africa. “We keep going back to hunt and explore. with our family and grandchildren. I mostly hunt cape buffalo now.”

They are what I use exclusively for Dangerous Game. Dramatic wound channels and extensive damage inside.

Thanks for your reply Hogbreath.

Very interesting.

But how can one improve on one shot kills??

We kept track of buffalo shot with the Barnes 300 grain X bullets.

Over 80 percent were killed with one shot!!

Actual internal damage was different on many animals, including buffalo.

Some seem to have gotten more internal damage tan others - but they all died!!??

The actual internal damage did not lead to quicker kills.

We found this true in all animals, not just buffalo.

Some animals would run a distance before they die, despite the fact that they showed more internal damage than ones dropped dead within a few yards.

Our own Walterhog bullets perform in similar fashion as the Barnes X. And I presume the sane can be said about all mono metal bullets.

I am always weary of claims that ALL bullets of a specif make would penetrate straight, all the time.

Bullets behave in very strange ways once they hit an animal.

We had an example that happened to us last year.

We are still scratching our heads how this happened.

I shot an eland, almost broadside, less than 300 yards away.

Bullets were our Walterhog 300 grains, muzzle velocity around 2780 FPS.

He ran off, and we ran after him.

He dropped on all four legs, in a sitting position, after having run about 60-80 yards.

We approached from behind, and slightly to the left of him.

I fired another shot at him, hitting him behind the rip cage, going forward.

He dropped his head and died.

Here is the strange bit.

This second bullet, went in behind his rib cg, went forward, into the cutest cavity, into the neck, then FOLLOWED THE NECK UPWARDS!!??

Coming out of the eland’s mouth, after breaking his lower jaw!!!???

We have had similar experiences like this before, hence why I never believe that all bullets will penetrate straight.

We tried an experiment years ago, with a 270 and a 375 caliber rifles.

We shot tgem into a box we made, with 3/4” thick pieces of wood, sepsrated by a few inches apart.

All bullets that were round nose and flat nose penetrated straight.

Most pointed, jacketted, bullets, did not.

Some change direction over 90 degrees!!??

Saeed, Thanks for your response. There is the art and the science of bullet terminal performance, isn't there.
I appreciate your examples. They don't always respond the same way to the same internal damage.

You have a lot more buffalo experience than I ever will!

Interesting bullet performance on the bullet running up the neck of the Eland. Cool.
I was at the skinning shed to see and photograph the damage from the CEB Raptor bullets. it was a very impressive.

I agree with you about straight penetration. It can not be 100% of the time. ( I added, In my story, "from almost any angle" to get off that hook a little bit.) However I like straight penetration "most of the time", better than "some of the time."

I am also very impressed with the Peregrine Bush Master bullet. as I described in my previous "...Oxpecker" story. ( of course simple hard cast bullets in ,577 NE are DRT often, on buffalo.) I have some to try in .358, 235 grain on plains game sometime.

Where can i see some photos of your Walterhog bullets? Sounds like they really work.

just to throw a different perspective in the mix.

their solid bullets numbers are pretty much the same as Elmer specified for his cast from tin and pure lead 44 mag bullets because he also wanted straight line penetration.

most of us that use lead bullets to hunt still use a 65% meplat and may or may not use a shoulder [I don't use the shoulder usually]

Brian,

I've heard great things about the CEB Raptor bullets from people that I trust so I decided to try CEBs bullets in my 375 H&H on a Nyala and Bushbuck hunt in 2016.

The 235 grain ESP Raptors shot to about 1.5 MOA at 3,000 fps from my Model 70 but the 235 grain ER (Extended Range) Raptors at 3100 fps shot consistent 3-shot groups under half an inch with sub 1 inch groups at 300 yards!

I happily loaded them up and took them on my hunt. On my first animal, a bushbuck, I was 200 meters away at a 90 degree angle and I hit him in the middle of the left shoulder. At the shot he flipped over backwards into some brush. After 30 minutes of tracking, four 180 grain Black Talons from my PH's Glock and another 235 grain ER Raptor at 15 feet we finally collected him. The first ER Raptor hit right on the ball of the shoulder joint and exploded under the skin. It left a 10"-12" diameter surface wound and failed to penetrate the chest cavity. The broken shoulder did slow him down and some shoulder bone fragments did penetrate into the left lung but I found four of the petals of the ER Raptor in the ruined shoulder meat.

My second animal taken was a jackal at about 150 yards. I hit him in the belly and the ER Raptor left a 2" diameter entrance wound and peeled the hide off the belly in a 6" diameter exit wound.

Needless to say I was scared to death to take a Nyala with these bullets and wound up passing on a number of bulls until I could get an easy 150 yard shot. I then shot my bull in the top of the neck to minimize the chance of the bullet hitting any heavy bone and failing to anchor him.

I have some photos of the bushbuck, bullet fragments and the jackal if you want to see them.

Lamar, I saw the same thing. Old Elmer!

Fjold, Thanks for posting. That is very interesting. I have also been told that one can not shoot through brush with them. In my experience they got through the buffalo's shoulder bone and really tore things up inside. Brian

I think we are living in bullet heaven right now.

With the current technology we have, I am not sure what we can improve on.

Smokeless powders are not really improving so much, brass cases we are stuck with, so any increase in velocity is going to come at higher pressures.

Not really sure how that might come by.

Bullet material is more or less static.

One cannot use any denser material for bullets, not with steel barrels, without causing damage.

So brass and copper it is right now.

Brass is much easier to machine on a CNC lathe, but not as dense as copper.

So copper seems to be the material of choice, and it does a fantastic job too.

Anyone not using mono metal bullets in hunting, using high velocity cartridges, is missing something.

All bullets work - even those old thin jacketted bullets.

But, at oen time or another, they are going to fail.

Not so with mono metals.

I have hunted with Sierra Match Kings bullets.

In this case 180 grain 30 caliber, driven to ridiculous speeds of almost 3500 fps.

Every animal I shot was dead with one shot.

But the bullets disintegrated completely.

I have had experience of faulty copper in our own Walterhog bullets.

Twice, on buffalo.

One hit a bull right on the shoulder.

The bullet destroyed the shoulder completely, but never penetrated into the chest cavity.

The shoulder bone became like sand!!!???

The other one was not as bad.

Again, hit the buffalo in the shoulder, and was found under the skin on the other side.

Only a piece of the bullet was found, and we could see the fault originally in the copper.

It appears the copper rod we were using had a minute fault in the middle of it.

We learnt a lesson from that one.

Now we weight each bullet made from the same rod - rods we get are in 4 meter length - anything that changes weight by 0.2 of a grain is looked at more carefully.

Sometimes we can see the faulty rods, by a tiny hole at the end where it is cut.

We also found that not all rods are the same density.

The bullets are held to very tight tolerances.

Some rods would give us 300 grain bullets.

Some rods might go as high as 303 grains, for the same size.

There is no danger in that, as we weigh all our bullets, and segregate them by weight anyway.

Yes, it is great time for us hunter regarding bullet options.
Thanks for the good stories/info. Saeed.

More good bullets for buffalo would be:

-Swift A-Frame. I used them on big plains game. They don't get enough credit. They are custom bullet quality at good/regular prices.

-North Fork expanding. They are very good/tough bullets. Their Cup Point is excellent.

-Peregrine Bush Master. Excellent expanding bullet on buffalo and tough animals.

-TSX and GS Custom for over .375 cal. Very reliable in the "big bores".

-Hard Cast Lead is much better than people think for big bore if the shape and alloy and hardness is right.

quote:

Originally posted by Brian Canada:
Fjold, Thanks for posting. That is very interesting. I have also been told that one can not shoot through brush with them. In my experience they got through the buffalo's shoulder bone and really tore things up inside. Brian

All the animals that I shot with the 235 grain ER Raptors were in the open with no brush in the way.

I compared the the ER and regular raptors and the ER bullets have a longer nose with the same size hollow point so it looks like the wall thickness of the hollow point is thinner than the regular Raptor bullets.

Bushbuck shoulder joint


Extended Range Raptor petals recovered in the bushbuck shoulder joint:

Fjold,
Interesting. Thanks for posting.

since this is in the reloading forum and not all about African game I'm gonna throw out another opinion.
I don't think we have hit the pinnacle of bullet making yet.
I have designed had made and sold several cast bullet designs, most of them were either caliber specific, or designed for high speeds.

not many people are interested in shooting a cast bullet at 27-2800 fps, there isn't a whole lot of practical application other than making holes in paper or making a red mist out of little furry things.

I also make my own jacketed bullets and hunt with them so I have learned a lot about what is in a bullet and how a change makes a difference in the field on live animals.

I'm just putting those 2 things out there so you can see where my point of view is coming from.

IMO. the cup and core bullet can be improved, not only improved but made to be on Par with a copper bullet of a lesser weight.
the issue would be in adding tooling and steps to the process.
I know I could design a bullet that consistently opens, consistently penetrates and shoots accurately.
it would however require about 4 more steps in the process, and a partial tungsten core [plus another cleaning at minimum] raising the price up to at least where copper bullets sit now.

if I can figure that out and place the center of rotation, center of gravity, ogive shape, and the weight of the jacket on a piece of paper imagine what a motivated engineer could do with the right prompting and a computer program.

Having been hunting for so many years, here is what I have learnt.

Bullets.

Mono metals are best.

Bullets with a solid rear shank, and lead in the front cavity, like the Trophy Bonded Bear Claws, are second best.

Bullets with a partition, and lead in both front and read half, separated by a copper partition, are a distant third.

Jacketted bullets are fourth.

In my own experience, Swift A-Frames lost all the lead from the rear partition.

For hunting, especially in Africa, penetration is the most important consideration, as one seldom gets a broadside shot on every animal hunted.

The belief that some bullets are better at shooting through brush is just plain bullshit.

Once a bullet hits anything, it develops a mind of its own.

I have had my own bullets go through all sorts of things, and still go straight and kill.

I have also seen them deflected by the smallest twig.

There is no rule to follow, except avoid shooting through anything.

^^.

like I said CAN be improved.
probably never will be, there is no monetary incentive.
every single part of the bullet would have to be overhauled and tooling would have to be made.

Fjold pictures of petals does not impress me at all, that's bullet failure as its been explained to me over the years, I don't want a bullet coming apart like that, goes back to the days of claims for the 220 swift killing deer, it did kill'em quick, at least most of the time, and therein lies the problem.

I did the testing on Buffalo of the North Fork cup points for Mike before they hit the market. They are still my favorite buff bullet, but GS Customs flat point solid and HVHPs work as well..Nosler, Barnes, GSC, Swift, and REm Corelokts and WW Power points still work on PH and in the USA.

All these claims sound like Michells who haunted these halls for some time, hard sale for his bullets by comparing claims, turned me off..Im sure your bullets are good bullets, most today are. Ive killed a lot of Buffalo with a lot of different bullets and have no real complaints on any of todays bullets..

Just my opinion, like yours, but from a different stand point and called conversation, not ment as a bar room brawl!

Today, there are so many great bullets out there that work, its just hard to compare anymore IMO..soldered cores have made great advances in bullet making..

BTW I still like Woodleighs as well as anything else, especially the 350 gr. .375, the 450 gr. 416 and 404s..

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Fjold pictures of petals does not impress me at all, that's bullet failure as its been explained to me over the years, I don't want a bullet coming apart like that, goes back to the days of claims for the 220 swift killing deer, it did kill'em quick, at least most of the time, and therein lies the problem.

I did the testing on Buffalo of the North Fork cup points for Mike before they hit the market. They are still my favorite buff bullet, but GS Customs flat point solid and HVHPs work as well..Nosler, Barnes, GSC, Swift, and REm Corelokts and WW Power points still work on PH and in the USA.

All these claims sound like Michells who haunted these halls for some time, hard sale for his bullets by comparing claims, turned me off..Im sure your bullets are good bullets, most today are. Ive killed a lot of Buffalo with a lot of different bullets and have no real complaints on any of todays bullets..

Just my opinion, like yours, but from a different stand point and called conversation, not ment as a bar room brawl!

Today, there are so many great bullets out there that work, its just hard to compare anymore IMO..soldered cores have made great advances in bullet making..

BTW I still like Woodleighs as well as anything else, especially the 350 gr. .375, the 450 gr. 416 and 404s..

No worries Ray, pictures of the petals coming off don't impress me either. I much prefer the folding petals of the monometal Barnes bullets and that's the only type of bullet that I'm going to be hunting medium and large game with.

I leave for Namibia on April 20th and the only bullets that I have been testing are the Barnes 250 TTSX, 270 LRX and the old reliable 300 grain TSX.

Ray, Used the North Fork Cup Point on a buffalo and sure like it.

I used the cup points on many buffalo, a Hippo, and on all manor of PG, they just kill small or large..I would hesitate to brain a elephant with one, but I wish someone would and tell me about it...I have no doubt they would kill and elephant with a shoulder shot, not sure about a brain shot.

Here is some more info about my hunt with CEB Raptor billets.

Before that hunt my total experience in buffalo hunting was on 5 buffalo. All with solids. All one shot kills:

1. 375HH CEB Solid. Facing me at 22 yds. bullet went through the heart. Bull went 30 yds.

2. Same as above but 40 yds with NF Cup Point. Bull went 30 yds.

3-4-5. 577NE hard cast bullets (23 BHN) 700 grain, wide flat meplat, 1700fps. Two heart shots. Each buff went less than 20 yds.

6. Peregrine Bush Master 577NE, 700gr. Semi expanding solid like the CEB Cup Point. Broadside in the centre of the shoulder. Dead right there. Near "bang flop". (It will be on a you tube video when I get it done.)

7. This was my first one with the Cutting Edge Bullet Raptor. 410 grains, .500 cal at 1940 fps. Single shot rifle. I was nervous about this bullet in spite of all the good things I had heard about it. It just sounded too good to be true! I told Pieter Kriel, the PH to immediatley hit the buffalo again with his Lott, if things didn't look right.
The Raptor hit the buffalo broadside in the middle of the shoulder at 40 yds. The kill was a DRT as described in the story above.

Even after we went to the skinning shed, I still wanted to use the same Raptor bullet again as I was afraid it's performance was a fluke.

I had brought several other makes of solid bullets to test as I was planning to write the story on "Bullets for Buffalo". Before my experience with Raptor bullets I was a solid bullet fan. I didn't intend for the story to be only about Raptors, but I just had to satisfy myself that the near, bang flop performance of the Raptor was actually representative of the bullet and it was not an anomaly.

The Buffalo were spooky as rats and we spent a lot of time trying to get close. I like to be close for my first shot on a buffalo, but I also wanted to duplicate, exactly, the previous Raptor shot.
With me clattering along through the dry leaves on my old legs, a camera woman (my wife, Sandy) and two huge Boer PH's, we just could not get close and I was running out of time.

I finally said to Pieter Kriel, " Dammit, I thought you Boers were sneaky and ran circle around the British."
Pieter grinned and said, "That costs more".

We had previously discussed using the hide (blind ) at the water hole and I was against it. But, by now I was all for it and I'm sure glad that I changed my mind. Hunting from a blind is an exciting change. I really enjoyed it.

We were in the blind nice and early the next morning and in a couple of hours I had killed two more big buffalo that each stood broad side to me at 40 yds. Each kill was exactly the same as the first Raptor kill. The 410 grains, .500 cal. Raptor hit square in the middle of the shoulder and each buffalo just shuddered, took a couple of steps and went down for the count.

We could barely believe it. But I have witnesses and videos to remind myself that it's true.

Brian

the last bit of that story is IMO a huge part of hunting and target shooting for money.

confidence in your ammo.
it could all but really,really suck, but if you KNOW it works,,, then it does.

Lamar, Yes! I have to prove it to myself by seeing the kill and inspecting the internal damage. (In this case three times.)

"Confidence in the ammo." As you say. Then the sneak and the hunt is very enjoyable.
"Ya gotta' have faith" in the ammo.

Like other have said there are lots of good bullets. I believe that I have found the best bullets for the application.

As Ray said above, "they kill animals dead, small or large"

The same is true of every single mono metal bullet made today, or ever likely to be invented.

There is no magic in this.

Destruction of organs causes death in animals.

And I am not sure what magic any manufacture can dream up of why THEIR bullets kill any better than others of the same type.

The shape of the bullet cannot be altered very much - we have physical limitations here, which are not so easy to change.

The longer one hunts, the more he is going to see very strange behavior from bullets, which defy all logical explanations.

I have seen bullets change direction, sometimes even without us knowing that there is anything on the way.

A friend was using my 375/404, 300 grain bullet.

He shot at a kongoni, which had his front half out in the open, and rear end hidden behind a tree.

He hit it in the balls!!!???

We still have no idea how the hell that bullet managed to do that.

As far as we could see, there was nothing to deflect it.

Agreed.
And, I figure that after all this talking that I have done about this bullet, the Hunting Gods may have some fun wth me on my next buffalo hunt.
Yikes. I hope it makes good story.

quote:

Originally posted by Brian Canada:
Agreed.
And, I figure that after all this talking that I have done about this bullet, the Hunting Gods may have some fun wth me on my next buffalo hunt.
Yikes. I hope it makes good story.

You have done a great job, and shared your experience with us.

How wonderful the Internet is, as we can exchange views in real time.

Unlike the past, when some arm chair writer publishes a load of rubbish, and one cannot counter him!

Saeed, Thanks for your kind comments. The internet can be a wonderful thing.

I used to read every hunting and shooting publication made.

We believed everything written.

Until they started going too far.

Like Elmer Keith going as far as saying he broke the spine of an an a I so with a 30-06, and it ran away!!

Or Bob Milek saying a 243 Winchester does not have enough energy to reliably kill deer.

But a 357 Magnum does!

I bet those old timers would not have lasted a week on the Internet.

I was the same way with hunting/shooting publications.

for the last 20 yrs or so I used the internet for business research and marketing and for personal research/reading. One must be discerning!

If you can separate the wheat from the chaff you can sure learn a lot. Sites like AR are an example of the web being a great service/resource. Brian

bullets is always a good discussion.

i tried on my 9.3x62 swift a frame and barnes tsx 250 grains for bison i did not recover the bullets but i was one shot each.

the conditions of shooting may not be the same but at the end what we want is less effort to track an animal and a dead shot.

found out that softer bullet may create some issues on bison. certainly due to the fat thickness of hair and bone density. so i stick with harder bullet.

next year it will be 270 grains tsx for the 375 ruger.

they are not known as charger like some african buffalo but they can be on you very fast and we have few stories of people bieng charged by them but luckily never happen to us.

but i do not think a very hard bullet is needed for all kind of game. i ve seen older barnes x not expanding on barrenground caribous and penciling.

just my 2 cents of copper ...

Medved, That makes sense to me. On these big, tough animals penetration means a lot.

I don't know how the CEB Raptor would work on those wooly/hairy bison. I think A-Frames and TSX would be great.

If it was me I would also look at NorthFork expanding ( very hard/tough bullet) and their cup point solid. Problem is, they are hard/costly to get in Canada. Prophet River Firearms may have some left.
Still, I don't think you can improve on your experience with A-Frame and TSX.
Thanks for posting. Brian

quote:

We had an example that happened to us last year.

We are still scratching our heads how this happened.

I shot an eland, almost broadside, less than 300 yards away.

Bullets were our Walterhog 300 grains, muzzle velocity around 2780 FPS.

He ran off, and we ran after him.

He dropped on all four legs, in a sitting position, after having run about 60-80 yards.

We approached from behind, and slightly to the left of him.

I fired another shot at him, hitting him behind the rip cage, going forward.

He dropped his head and died.

Here is the strange bit.

This second bullet, went in behind his rib cg, went forward, into the cutest cavity, into the neck, then FOLLOWED THE NECK UPWARDS!!??

Coming out of the eland’s mouth, after breaking his lower jaw!!!???

I had a very similar experience once with a .50 cal. Muzzle-loader during a muzzle-loader season in Colorado. I was using a muzzle-loader that I had built on a Stevens break open shotgun action.

Back in those days the Muzzle Loader season tag allowed a bull, 4 points or better OR a cow with the same tag.

I was using 530 grain solid cast bullets that a friend had casted for me.
Well, it was the end of the season, and I had missed an opportunity to take a nice bull.

On the second to last day of the season I spotted what I thought was a cow elk’s head looking at me about 40 yards away.
The elk was standing on the crest of a knoll about 15 feet above me. All I could see was the Elk’s head and maybe 6 inches of the neck just below the head. I took aim at the head and fired.
The Elk dropped right there.

Again, the Elk was elevated above me roughly 15 feet when I took the shoot and the body was angled downward on the back side of the knoll.

When I came upon the Elk (DRT), I found the 530 grain bullet had entered the head just to the left of the nostrils but DID NOT go out the back of the skull in a straight line of fire.
To my amazement, I found an exit wound just behind the rib cage on the left side of the animal.
When I and my buddies quarter the Elk up, we found that the solid lead bullet must have hit the skull cap and turned and went down the neck along side of the spine and then slightly turned again to exit just past the end of the rib cage!!

I never found any sign of bullet fragments what so ever.

By the way, what I thought was a cow Elk was actually a bull that apparently knocked it’s antlers off in velvet. It had rather large antler bases that were rough on top and also one strange, goofy brow tine that dipped down and around towards the back of the head which was hidden by the Elk’s ear making me think it was a cow.

Brian,
Do these cutting edge bullets give and exit wound or end up against the hide inside or just explode..The look fragile to me, but that could be old school something I was born to and nurtured throughout my life..May I will give these bullet a try on elk in my 30-06 or 270, what weight do you recommend..I also wonder just looking at the picture if they would work in a mod. 94 30-30 or 25-35 with that open flat point...You make a pretty good case for those bullets, I'll give you that..

Ray, Sorry for the slow response. Been away.

I have only used the CEB Raptors in 410 grain .500 cal at 1920 fps and 600 grain CEB Raptors in .577 cal. at 1900 fps. on 4 cape buffalo.
All 30-45 yds shots. The core stopped on the other side for a broadside shoulder shot. The blades make it through the vitals in a 6-9 inch spiral pattern. They really raise hell inside the buffalo. much tissue damage.

I was sceptical but am convinced now. I have booked a buffalo hunt in Mozambique for 2020 and will use a .500 S&W in TC rifle, .410 grain ,500 cal, as above at 2000+ fps. ( I will use the 500S&W primarily because it will make a good story for the African hunting rag that I write for.)

My grandson used 100 grain CE raptor at 2600 fps, with tip, on old Blesbok at 110 yds. Shoulder shot. Blesbok took 4 jumps and went down like piano.

The CEB 30 cal raptors without the tips are working well in tube feed 30-30 lever actions. They kill like hell, I am told. They open at 2 inches of penitration and go to work as advertised.
A lighter than the standard cup and core bullet is recomended. ie. 130 to 150 grain in 30-06. You know that, like TSX, they are long for bullet weight and one can run into stability issue if you use the heavier/longer weights in standard old school twist rates. ( no lead in the bullet.)

This all goes against the grain of this old school hunter. But they work. My two Ph's, who have been in on hundreds of cape buffalo kills were very, very impressed. I have limited experience, 7 cape buffalo with .577 NE solids and 375 HH solids. I will nw use only CEB Raptor, for buffalo.


One thing, the raptor don't like going through brush.

I am going to try 160 CEB Maximus for my grandson in .358 at 2300+ fps in Mozambique. He will hunt PG up to Wildebeest.

Also, the CEB and NorthFork solids penetrate straight and deep. That NF cup point is outstanding. I used it in 375 HH on cape buffalo.

I hope this helps.

Brian

I did my own little bullet test on 111 Asiatic buffalo in 7 days, comparing mostly A-frames, CEBs and TSXs in a .458 Win. Picked up another one for camp meat the previous week for 112.

The A-Frames worked as expected, nothing to fault there. Visual and audible indications of hits where the highest with them. Being that pass throughs are rare with softs on asiatics many bullets were recovered; inevitably under the hide on the far side. That was a bit of a recurring theme, the other two bullets generally made the hide on the far side too. No A-frames separated, weight retention was 100% and expansion right around 2X or a bit more.It didn't matter much what the range was. It was boring, if you looked at one you'd seen them all.

The TSX seemed to not hit as hard, it was a rare thing to hear the impacts. That might be a small thing to some, and trophy hunting one at a time it might even be a small thing. Bullets stopped on the far side hide, usually right around 2 X expansion. Longer shots, which were often taken on already hit animals they showed very little expansion at all. For trophy hunting one at a time at short range it might not make a difference in hunt success but difference there was and it was something you could see. I was a little nervous about them because of some bad experience with 400 grain .416s, but Id have no problem using them again on buffalo.

The Safari Raptors were something that I had high hopes for. That didn't work out so great. At close range they were quite good for a clear brush free first shot. They rip thing up internally too. The trouble with trying to kill a whole herd of something is there is only one first shot, then all hell breaks loose. Many animals are shot more than once, and if one of your hit animals happens to be behind brush you may as well try pounding one through because theres lots to gain and nothing to lose because its already hit. That's where a disturbing pattern started showing up. It started to seem like I just couldn't get through that brush. It was much like trying to shoot through grass with a 22/250. I know that any bullet can deflect, and the first is stuff happens, the 2nd is a fluke, and the next one is another fluke, the next few are because of bad behavior in your youth; and the next few are because of bad behavior in a previous life. After awhile though, it becomes painfully obvious that they just couldn't do what the other two did easily. The mystery cleared up when I started finding petals that just managed to stick on the hide, and a many nicks that were from petals that drew a droplet of blood and bounced off. The bullets were blowing up on the brush. Again, anything can deflect but a bullet that broke into seven pieces in the air only hits by accident. The other types didn't seem to have that problem. Longer ranges didn't do the CEBs any favors, they slow down faster than a thrown bag of leaves. You could argue that they were never meant as anything other than a powder burn range dangerous game bullet, which might be true but short range game loves brush and brush hates CEBs. I don't see any need to bring my own handicaps of that magnitude on a hunting trip so I'm done with them.

So in summary, A-Frame sure, TSXs yeah maybe, and CEBs forget about it.

Sorry to hear that they didn't work out for you.
A-Frames are one of my favourites too .

quote:

killed buffalo with Raptors, successfully, as discussed above, at 50 yds. About 1,800fps. terminal velocity, which would be about 250yds distance with your 458, I guess. You can't shoot through brush with them. For longer range you just insert the polymer tips.
I don't know anything about "trying to kill a whole herd".

That's from culling in Australia, which is the same thing MM did get his body count. I soon found out why he gets hysterical when someone wants to use all softs instead a mag full of solids. If I put the tips on them they either wouldn't have fit in the mag, or required leaving half of the powder out. I could load .458 Wins in my Lott to get around that, but I'm not going to. There's too many other good bullets to bother.

I don't care what bullets other people use, none of my business. I just call 'em like I see them.

To each his own. I am sure that you know what you are doing. You have killed a lot more buffalo than me. Thanks for your comments.

Dogleg. If I had to do some fast and furious shooting in a herd, I think that I would do what you say, go with A-Fame or NF expanding. I realize why Raptors would not work.
I see the CEB Raptor as more of a specialty bullet.
I like solids for buffalo too, NF and CEB, but they may not be what you want for your "kill the whole herd" scenario.