I've read that reduced charges in theory can cause overpressure when the primer "flash over" in a half full case with the powder on one side of the case ignites more of the powder at once than usual. But I've also read that this has never been reproduced in the lab. So I really can't give a good answer on the necessity of a filler.

Usually you can find dacron fiber "cotton balls" in Xmart near the nail polish remover. MM

On to your questions:

Q1 : I believe that with some powders the filler is necessary to prevent detonation. IMR gives -06 data for IMR 4198 without fillers, but at charge weights higher than the speer loads.

Q2, Q3: I've heard of using corn meal and cream of wheat as fillers, polyester is proabaly an ok substitues for dacron (which I think may just be a trade name for polyester).

I don't work with loads that require fillers anymore. Too many risks in my opinion.

Accurate has data for their XMP 5744 without fillers, likewise Alliant gives data for reduced loads with 2400 and other powders without fillers. IMR gives load data with 4198 in the -06 and they don't mention fillers either.

If so- very glad you posted. That photo gives a very wrong impression using Kapok like fillers. First- the caption with said pic gives no specific directions, ie- don't ram that filler down hard. Those wads should be wt'd for uniformity too. I have experimented with cast bullets- to speeds matching jacketed velocity, and with about every filler you could dream up-- and the only filler loads that ever got me in trouble were those Kapok loads inspired by this Speer photo. No rant on Speer- their good people, just this pic I feel is a mistake w/o accurate directions.

Assuming a different photo from Speer- which one and where's it running at?

I feel with way about fillers for newbies per it's use. Go to a site where that use is discussed in detail- and/or read all you can to understand the priciples involved. You've got some good advice above per loads that do not require it's use. That is your safest route.

Fillers are not unsafe-- if you understand how to employ them.

http://www.guns.connect.fi/gow/arcane1.html

http://www.guns.connect.fi/gow/QA6.html

BTW read the whole sight.

BR Anders �sterberg

MM
what type of velocity range are you getting?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tanoose:
I want to use reduced loads in an old bolt action rifle i will try IMR4198 26-30 grains. the speer manual used dacron and kapok fiber filler , which i cant seem to find . my questions are 1) do i need a filler for safety or is it used for accuracy 2) what other types of filler are ok to use and 3) how about polyester filler can this be used Thanks Dave

---

If you use 10 to 14 grains of Unique with a standard large rifle primer you don't need to use filler - velocities will be consistant and you will have a reduced load that is completely safe and cheap to use.

PaulS

------------------
stay safe and live long!

I am going to the range today to chrono some 30-06 long range loads(RL-22/190grSMK). I will shoot a few of the reduced load over the chronograph and post the results here for a better answer to your question. MM

Date: 17 Feb 94 17:50:11
From: Ed Harris
To: All
Subj: Red Dot in Reduced Rifle Loads

"The Load" is 13 Grains of Red Dot" (In most strong-actioned, military rifles
of .30 cal. or larger) READ ON FOR SPECIFICS AND WARNINGS!

(If you missed this article when it originally appeared in Handloader's
Digest, 10th Edition, here it is again...

By C.E. (Ed) Harris, Revised 2-16-94

My success in economizing by using up leftover shotshell powder
has changed my approach to handloading. I had a caddy of Red
Dot, and no longer reloaded shotshells, so asked myself, "what
can I do with it?" My shooting is now mostly high-power rifle.
I needed several hundred rounds a week to practice offhand,
reloading, and working the bolt in sitting and prone rapid, but
didn't want to burn out my barrel or my wallet. Powder used to
be cheap, but today is $20/lb. (or more), so cost is a factor in
component choice.

I used to ignore pistol or shotgun powders in reduced rifle loads
for the usual reasons: the risk of accidental double-charges,
fears of erratic ignition, and concerns with maintaining
accuracy, and reduced utility with a low-power load. Still, the
caddy of Red Dot kept "looking at me" from the corner. Would it
work? Looking at data in the RCBS Cast Bullet Manual No. 1 and
the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook suggested it would, so I tried it,
much to my delight! Red Dot is bulky, compared to the usual
rifle powders used in .30-'06-size cases. It occupies more powder
space in typical charges than common "reduced load" rifle
powders, such as #2400, IMR4227, IMR4198 or RL-7. The lower bulk
density of Red Dot adequately addresses my safety concerns
because it makes an accidental double charge far less likely.

After considerable experimentation, my friends and I found "The
Load" is 13 grains of Hercules Red Dot, in any FULL SIZED rifle
case of .30 cal. or larger. "The Load" has distinct advantages
over more expensive alternatives, within certain limitations,
which are:

1. The case must be LARGER than the .300 Savage or .35 Remington.

2. The rifle must be of MODERN (post 1898) design, suitable for
smokeless powder, with a bore size of .30 cal. or larger.

3. The bullet weight must be within the NORMAL range for the
given cartridge.

4. Inert fillers such as Dacron, kapok or are NOT RECOMMENDED!
(Nor are they necessary).

Within these restrictions I have now engraved in stone, "The
Load" works! The bullet may be either jacketed or cast.
Gaschecked cast bullets required in the .30 cals., otherwise you
will get leading, but plainbased ones work fine in the 8mm Mauser
or larger.

"The Load" has shown complete success in the .30-40 Krag, .303
British, 7.65 Argentine, .308 Win., 7.62x54R Russian, .30-'06,
8x57 and .45-70 (strong-actioned rifles such as the 1886
Winchester or 1895 Marlin -- 12 grs. is maximum for 400 gr.
bullets in the Trapdoor Springfield -- Ed.) Though I have not
tried it, I have no doubt that "The Load" would work well in
other cartridges fitting these parameters, such as the .35
Whelen, .358 Winchester, .375 H&H or .444 Marlin, based on RCBS
and Lyman published data.

"The Load" fills 50% or more of a .308 Win or .30-'06 case. The
risk of an accidental double charge is greatly reduced, because
the blunder is immediately obvious if you visually check, powder
fill on EVERY CASE, as you should whenever handloading! A bulky
powder measures more uniformly, because normal variation in the
measured volume represents a smaller percentage of the charge
weight.

Red Dot's granulation is somewhat less coarse than other flake
powders of similar burning rate, such as 700-X, which aids
metering. Its porous, uncoated flakes are easily ignited with
standard primers. So-called "magnum" primers do no harm in cases
larger than the .30-'06, but are neither necessary nor
recommended in smaller ones. I DO NOT recommend pistol primers in
reduced rifle loads, because weak primers may cause erratic
ignition, and their thinner cups can perforate more easily,
causing gas leakage and risk of personal injury!

The velocities obtained with 13 grs. of Red Dot appear mild, but
"The Load" is no pipsqueak! In a case like the .308 or .30-'06,
you get (from a 24" sporter barrel) about 1450 f.p.s. with a 200-
gr. cast bullet, 1500 with a 170-gr., or 1600 with a 150-gr. cast
load. "The Load" is fully comparable to "yesterday's deer
rifle", the .32-40, and provides good expansion of cheap, soft
alloys (10-13 BHN) at woods ranges. Jacketed bullet velocities
with "The Load" are about 120-150 f.p.s. less than a lubricated
lead bullet of the same weight.

Longer-barreled military rifles pick up a few feet per second,
but "The Load" starts to slow down in barrels over 28", such as
the M91 Moisin-Nagant and long Krags or 98a Mausers.

My preferred alloy in the .30 cals. is a mixture of 3-5 lbs. of
.22 backstop scrap to 1 lb. of salvaged linotype. Wheelweights
also work well, as do soft "Scheutzen" alloys such as 1:25
tin/lead. in bores of 8 mm or larger. "The Load" drives soft-
cast .30-cal. to 8 mm bullets fast enough to get expansion, but
without fragmenting. These out-penetrate factory .30-30
softpoints, and kill medium game up to 150 lbs. well at short
ranges up to 100 yards, when placed accurately. In medium and
large bores like the .375 H&H or .45-70, "The Load" gives typical
black powder ballistics for the bore. A 255-265 gr. cast bullet
in the .375 H&H approximates the .38-55 at 1330 f.p.s. Soft 300-
405-gr. cast bullets are pushed at 1300-1350 f.p.s. from a 22"
barrel .45-70, sporter are very effective on deer at woods
ranges. Cast bullets over .35 cal. do not have to expand
appreciably to work well on game if blunt and heavy for their
caliber.

The Load" works well with jacketed bullets, giving somewhat lower
velocities than with cast lead, due to less effective obturation
and greater friction in the bore. The 85-gr. or 100-gr. Hornady
or 90-gr. Sierra JHP for the .32 H&R Mag. revolver, or the
Remington 100-gr. .32-20 softpoint bullet become mild, but
destructive varmint loads at 1600 f.p.s. from a .308 or '06.

If you substitute a stiffly jacketed 110-gr. .30 Carbine
softpoint bullet, designed for higher velocities than imparted by
"The Load", you have a non-destructive "coup de gras", small
game or wild turkey load which shoots close to your deer rifle's
normal zero, but at 25 yards! A more accurate and effective small
game or varmint load uses a flat-nosed 150-gr. pr 170-gr. .30-30
bullet instead. These don't expand at the 1400-1450 f.p.s.
obtained with "The Load", but their larger frontal area improves
killing power compared to roundnoses or spitzers.

I have use pulled GI .30 caliber Ball, and Match bullets with
"The Load" for cheap 200-yd. NMC boltgun practice. Accuracy is
equal to arsenal loads, but I use my 600-yard sight dope at 200
yards. I expect 5-6" ten-shot, iron-sight groups at 200 yards
using M2 or M80 pulled bullets and about 3-4" for the M72 or M118
Match bullets. I use these mostly in bolt-action rifles, but they
can be single-loaded for offhand or slow-fire practice ion the
Garand as well. These .30 cal. pulls shoot fine in the .303
British or 7.62x54 Russian, despite their being a bit small,
because the fast-burning Red Dot upsets them into the deeper
grooves. The 173-gr. Match .30 cal. boattail bullets may not
shoot as well at these low velocities as lighter flat bases in
the 12" twist .308 Win. barrels, but they do quite well in ten-
inch twist barrels such as in the '06, 7.62 Russian, .303 British
and 7.65 Argentine.

The longer bore time of these 1400 f.p.s. (typical 170-180-gr.
jacketed load velocity) practice loads makes errors in follow-
through apparent, a great practice and training aid. The light
recoil and lower report of these loads helps transition Junior
tyro shooters from the .22 rimfire to the service rifle without
being intimidated by the noise and recoil.

Zeroing is no problem in the M1 or M14, because "The Load" shoots
into the ten-ring of the reduced SR target at 200 yards from your
M1 or M14 rifle at using your normal 600 yard sight dope! The
somewhat greater wind deflection blows you into the "8" ring at
200 yards with the same conditions you would expect to do so at
600 yards with M118 Match ammunition. This provides your Junior
shooters some useful wind-doping practice.

The economy of a lighter charge is obvious. A full power .30-'06
load using 50 grs. of an IMR powder like 4064 costs 10 cents a
pop, just for powder, at 140 rounds per pound (if you are lucky
enough to find new powder for $14/lb.). Substituting 13 grs. of
Red Dot gets 538 rounds per pound at a cost of 2.6 cents which is
a savings of over $7 per hundred rounds in powder alone! Greater
savings are possible if you get the best price and buy powder by
the caddy.

Velocity and point of impact of "The Load" is not noticeably
affected by varying powder position in the case. I shoot them
either slow fire, or clip-fed and flipped through rapid-fire in
the boltgun with equal accuracy. Red Dot is very clean burning
and is economical both on the basis of its lower charge weight,
and its lower basic cost per pound compared to other "rifle"
powders.

Best of all, using a shotshell powder I already have reduces the
kinds of powder I keep and eliminates the need for a special
"reduced load" powder. This approach is ideal for rifle shooters
who are also shotgunners, since almost everybody who reloads for
12-ga. probably has a keg of Red Dot already!

I now realize it is foolish to use heavier charges of more
expensive powder for routine practice, varmint or small game
loads in my center-fire rifles. I seldom shoot at over 200 yards,
and don't enjoy wearing out expensive target barrels
unnecessarily. Since I already have good sight dope and need to
work more on technique and save my remaining barrel accuracy life
for matches.

I am glad I found the way to get alot more shooting for the
dollar. Economical powder choice IS possible, and my reloading
has become less complicated and more enjoyable simple since I
realized I could do most of my rifle shooting with 13 grains of
Red Dot!

In Home Mix We Trust, Regards, Ed

--- msged 2.05
* Origin: Home of Ed's Red (1:109/120.3006)

------------------

Shot some of my reduced loads over the chrono today. Here are the results:

Brass: Rem
Primer: CCI 250
Powder: Green Dot, 16 grains
Bullet: Speer 110 gr varminter JHP
Barrel length: 26"
Rounds Fired: 10
Avg Velocity: 2040 fps
Extreme spread: 11 fps
Standard deviation: 5.6 fps
Accuracy: 2.2" at 100 yards. Winds gusting to 15 mph at 8 o'clock.
Temp: 45 Farenheit

No pressure signs whatsoever. In fact the primers were noticeably "unflattened" compared to fired factory ammo. MM