Ive been reloading for my 30-06 and my dads 308. Whats the reason for my 06 cases to be hot and dads 308 cases cold?

Give us a little fuller explanation?

Is the 30-06 a pump action and the 308 a bolt?

Perhaps it has something to do with the amount of powder you guys are burning in each? The more powder you burn and the more energy you release, the greater the amount of heat that's created?

When a semi auto slings the case out of the chamber, it is hot. Not so much the brass from a bolt rifle. I would guess that in the bolt rifle, the receiver has time to act as a heat sink to draw the heat away from the brass whereas in an auto, the brass doesn't spend enough time in the chamber to cool.

Wasbeeman is onto the phenomenon.

Brass only takes a portion of a second to transfer much of its heat to the walls of the chamber. When immediately removed from the chamber as with an automatic, the brass doesn't have time to transfer heat to the chamber so it is very warm to the touch. Simply allowing the brass to sit in the chamber for the half-second or so that it usually does after firing in a manual action transfers most of the heat to the barrel. In fact, it is virtually impossible to work a manual action fast enough that you don't get a lot of heat transfer (and therefore cooler brass) compared to an auto.

I know that it doesn't seem possible for the fraction of a second difference in an auto and a manual action, but I'll assure you that this is the phenomenon in play here.

Counter to intuition, the fact that spent brass from an auto may lay on the grass or ground for a half-minute, it doesn't lose its heat nearly as as throroughly as when held in the chamber of a manual action gun for 1/60 that amount of time.

It is also true that some loads use a combination of powder and pressure which heats the brass hotter than others, but it is the auto vs. manual action which is the most significant factor.

thanks guys .. yes the 30-06 is a semi and the 308 is a lever. I have the 30-06 loaded at mid range from all the books i have and the 308 is loaded almost to the max loads.

I noticed the same thing on my 30-06 (Remington 760 pump). While firing off a bag, the recoil would move the slide back just enough so that the case wasn't in contact with the chamber walls and the case came out warm/hot, while with a bolt action, they were ambient temp.

quote:

Originally posted by richyb:
.. yes the 30-06 is a semi ...

Actually, it is a Cyclic Timing issue.

The Bullet has to still be inside the inside the Barrel and ahead of the Pressure Ports(holes which allow the Pressure to reach the Cycling Mechanism) so there is enough Pressure to operate the semi-auto Cycle. As the Lever begins unlocking the Action, the Case is pulled from the Chamber Walls "slightly" and then both the inside and outside of the Case has EXTREMELY Hot Gas applied to them. The Heat-Sink effect, as previously mentioned, is no longer in effect during this portion of the Cycle since the Case is slightly separated from the Chamber, so it remains HOT as it is Ejected. Same-E-Same on semi-auto revolvers and 22LRs of semi-auto design.

Best of luck to you.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by richyb:
.. yes the 30-06 is a semi ...

Actually, it is a Cyclic Timing issue.

The Bullet has to still be inside the inside the Barrel and ahead of the Pressure Ports(holes which allow the Pressure to reach the Cycling Mechanism) so there is enough Pressure to operate the semi-auto Cycle. As the Lever begins unlocking the Action, the Case is pulled from the Chamber Walls "slightly" and then both the inside and outside of the Case has EXTREMELY Hot Gas applied to them. The Heat-Sink effect, as previously mentioned, is no longer in effect during this portion of the Cycle since the Case is slightly separated from the Chamber, so it remains HOT as it is Ejected. Same-E-Same on semi-auto revolvers and 22LRs of semi-auto design.

Best of luck to you.

PLEASE, "Hot Core", this is just so wrong it pains me to read it. If you believe that chamber gas is leaking back around the case in an automatic, you're just living in an alternative dimension.

And all of you have not mentioned that in a semi automatic the case is yanked out of the chamber fast, while some are even still obturated to the chamber walls, and that my friends is friction. So it's a combination of friction and powder burn heat. Look up friction welding of metals on the internet if you don't believe how much heat can be produced with it. 22 RF's really don't have enough powder to make the extracted cases as hot as they are coming out of semi automatics. Again it's the powder produced heat and the friction.

I think you have female cases . . .

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
And all of you have not mentioned that in a semi automatic the case is yanked out of the chamber fast, while some are even still obturated to the chamber walls, and that my friends is friction. So it's a combination of friction and powder burn heat. Look up friction welding of metals on the internet if you don't believe how much heat can be produced with it. 22 RF's really don't have enough powder to make the extracted cases as hot as they are coming out of semi automatics. Again it's the powder produced heat and the friction.

While friction of one metal surface being pulled across another can and will certainly generate some amount of heat, no significant friction exists at the time the case is extracted from the chamber. This is true in either a gas-operated Centerfire auto or a simple blowback .22 Rimfire.

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
And all of you have not mentioned that in a semi automatic the case is yanked out of the chamber fast, while some are even still obturated to the chamber walls, and that my friends is friction. So it's a combination of friction and powder burn heat. Look up friction welding of metals on the internet if you don't believe how much heat can be produced with it. 22 RF's really don't have enough powder to make the extracted cases as hot as they are coming out of semi automatics. Again it's the powder produced heat and the friction.

While friction of one metal surface being pulled across another can and will certainly generate some amount of heat, no significant friction exists at the time the case is extracted from the chamber. This is true in either a gas-operated Centerfire auto or a simple blowback .22 Rimfire.

Not entirely true. There are actions that extract the case kind of early, but I'm not going to bother listing them. I will tell you this story:

One of my bests friends had a 742 Rem in 30-06. This is the first centerfire rifle he started loading for. He was cheap and bought the hand Lee Loader. We know that just neck sizes the cases. He didn't think about having a semi auto and it would feed better and such with full length sized cases. Well his rifle operated fine and was exceptionally accurate. We were shooting one day at his range on a hot summer day in OK. He put his reloaded ammo in the original Rem boxes with the styro-foam holder. He shot a three shot group and left the gun setting on the sandbags. We walked up and inspected his target. When we got back to the bench we noticed one of his empties rolled down the table, against that styro-foam holder, and melted all the way through it it cutting it in two pieces. About 1/2 the case, starting from the case mouth back, was blue/purple from heat...and covered in melted styro-foam of course. Now you going to tell me that was heated that hot 100 % from powder combustion? I don't believe so. Don't forget even a neck sized case is suppose to spring back from the chamber walls after firing, but like I've said it's not always the case.

quote:

Now you going to tell me that was heated that hot 100 % from powder combustion?

Yes. A tapered case does not touch the chamber significantly once it begins to move backward.
They are tapered for feeding and extraction purposes. If did drag on the chamber all the way back it would have to be expanded straight - and you will notice they are not expanded straight.

Yeah, go on thinking that.

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
...PLEASE, "Hot Core", this is just so wrong it pains me to read it. If you believe that chamber gas is leaking back around the case in an automatic, you're just living in an alternative dimension.

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:

quote:

Now you going to tell me that was heated that hot 100 % from powder combustion?

Yes. A tapered case does not touch the chamber significantly once it begins to move backward.
They are tapered for feeding and extraction purposes. If did drag on the chamber all the way back it would have to be expanded straight - and you will notice they are not expanded straight.

I suppose that theoretically the straight portion of the neck might "drag", but even so, the friction-generated heat would be minimal.

With a blowback rimfire you might also theoretically find some "drag". With a blowback action the case sits still in the chamber until the pressure on the case head overcomes the inertia of the bolt block. In that instance the bolt block would have to start its movement while there was still pressure on the case head (and thus the case walls). However, anyone who has experienced the resistance that even a slightly dirty .22 round exhibits in manually extracting it would realize that the extractor is simply not powerful enough to "drag" a case out of the chamnber which has any significant amount of frictional resistance.

Insofar as the operation of a gas-powered automatic action, in order for there to be pressure still on the inside of the case while it is being withdrawn from the chamber, one would have to believe that the rotating bolt head, against which the head of the case is pressing with 50,000 pounds per square inch, can be made to rotate under this pressure. Of course it cannot. The chamber pressure must have dropped to virtully nil before the bolt head can begin its rotation; and since extraction comes subsequent to rotation, it would be impossible for there to be significant pressure remaining inside the case, ergo, the case walls (even if not tapered) would not be dragging against the chamber and thus creating heat from friction.

Bottom line: While it might intuitively seem like the friction of extracting a case which is still under slight chamber pressure would could create some heat, in reality no such potential exists.

Please note that SmokinJ's theory of friction is diametrically counter to Hot Core's theory that the case is heated from both sides due to hot chamber gases being both inside and outside of it. If hot combustion gases were between the case wall and chamber wall, then there would by definition be no contact and no friction. Neither theory is correct, of course, but these two guys should be arguing with one another, not with the rest of us.

Have SR explain if a tapered case extracts easily why it doesn't full length resize so easily.

I never said the full pressure is still there on some action types, what idiot inventor would build a system like that. There are certain actions that the pressure isn't nil.

None of you explained my friends extracted 06 cases from his 742 turning blue/purple halfway down the case starting from the mouth. Huh, any guru's want to take a stab at that??

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
... Neither theory is correct, of course, but these two guys should be arguing with one another, not with the rest of us.

Lots of information here, as usuall. Best post Muskegman, IMO.

Jerry

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
Have SR explain if a tapered case extracts easily why it doesn't full length resize so easily.

Why can't you explain how a tapered case can drag out of a tapered chamber?

Do this - solve the taper angle to find out how much the case has to move backward to lose contact with the chamber assuming the case has expanded by .XXX. You name the .XXX amount and the tapered case. Then you solve the distance the case has to move before it turns loose.
Once you have that number tell me the .XXX amount and the case in question. You also tell me the taper angle and the length of contact and I will solve it for you and check your work.

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
Have SR explain if a tapered case extracts easily why it doesn't full length resize so easily.

Why can't you explain how a tapered case can drag out of a tapered chamber?

Do this - solve the taper angle to find out how much the case has to move backward to lose contact with the chamber assuming the case has expanded by .XXX. You name the .XXX amount and the tapered case. Then you solve the distance the case has to move before it turns loose.
Once you have that number tell me the .XXX amount and the case in question. You also tell me the taper angle and the length of contact and I will solve it for you and check your work.

First most semi auto cartridges aren't tapered that much. One that I can think of that is, is the 7.62x39.

Since you're such a big know it all explain my friend cooked empties out of his 742 Remington. And no he wasn't loading thermite

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
Have SR explain if a tapered case extracts easily why it doesn't full length resize so easily.

Why can't you explain how a tapered case can drag out of a tapered chamber?

Do this - solve the taper angle to find out how much the case has to move backward to lose contact with the chamber assuming the case has expanded by .XXX. You name the .XXX amount and the tapered case. Then you solve the distance the case has to move before it turns loose.
Once you have that number tell me the .XXX amount and the case in question. You also tell me the taper angle and the length of contact and I will solve it for you and check your work.

First most semi auto cartridges aren't tapered that much. One that I can think of that is, is the 7.62x39.

Since you're such a big know it all explain my friend cooked empties out of his 742 Remington. And no he wasn't loading thermite

Since you are such a big know it all why don't you speak plain English.

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
Have SR explain if a tapered case extracts easily why it doesn't full length resize so easily.

Why can't you explain how a tapered case can drag out of a tapered chamber?

Do this - solve the taper angle to find out how much the case has to move backward to lose contact with the chamber assuming the case has expanded by .XXX. You name the .XXX amount and the tapered case. Then you solve the distance the case has to move before it turns loose.
Once you have that number tell me the .XXX amount and the case in question. You also tell me the taper angle and the length of contact and I will solve it for you and check your work.

First most semi auto cartridges aren't tapered that much. One that I can think of that is, is the 7.62x39.

Since you're such a big know it all explain my friend cooked empties out of his 742 Remington. And no he wasn't loading thermite

Since you are such a big know it all why don't you speak plain English.

You know damn well what I'm talking about. If you do not, go back and read about my friends 742 shooting experience. It also did this all the time until he bought a press and regular reloading dies.

To answer your tapered cases, they still get hot from friction.

You have just discovered the real benefit of a bolt action over any other action. As a reloader you just eject the empties down your shirt front to save. Try that with a semi!!!