recently started making up loads for the 30-06AI using the barnes 150grn ttsx and sako brass.
Fire formed the brass using a cheaper head with minimum load. Then neck sized and made up several different loads to find most accurate and after firing and inspecting cases a ring has appeared around head of cases, i didn't think it was pressure signs as maximum charge is stated as 60grn and maximum i used was 59.6, in an ai case i thought this would be no problem. Whats the possible causes? Experts?

quote:

appeared around head of cases

WELCOME
what are you calling the head?
neck ,shoulder, base?
Can you post a picture?
was it a rechamber 30-06 original barrel or a new chamber in anew barrel?

The head is the base; the answer is simple and common; you didn't fire form them correctly and now you have excessive "space" between shoulder and chamber and your cases are stretched. Throw your cases away and start over. I fire form my 280 Ackley by seating bullets very far out, jammed into the rifling, which will hold the case head back against the bolt face. Fire form with a medium load, and don't set it back whilst resizing and you will have no more issues. The other way is to neck the brass up to 33 or 35 caliber first and form a false shoulder that is too much work.

i have a picture, how the heck do i post it cant figure it out

3 fired cases with the ring and one that has only been fireformed on the right

never meant to post that big... can tell im new to this

Did you read my answer? Saw one in half lengthwise and you will see it is very thin at the ring. Next shot it will separate; no it won't kill you. Don't do it anyway.

Can't get my head round how it's happening this time round when my previous loads with Norma brass using same method for fireforming never gave me this issue.. probable answer to the problem being stick to norma but would like to know the cause and your answer seems to fit the bill

I shoot a lot of Gibb stylr wildcats. Shoulder forward. Ive seen that ring often. When I tried COW bullet in the lands etc. All allowed the case to stretch at the rear as the shoulder moved forward. In my case I found that a false shoulder held the case against the bolt. Then the case expanded to fit not stretched in length.

If your AI chamber was done correct it should be a crush fit and not allow stretch. If you dont feel the bolt crushing the 06 brass the chamber is to long. If it were mine Id go with a false shoulder.

Its An issue with AI cases if the chamber is a little long.
I use new cases and do not resize them When I fire form. Looking at the brass the neck did not seal . what I do is what DPCpd suggested. I leave the bullet seated long and finish seating it when I close the bolt gently. this holds the case pretty close to center and against the bolt face. that will blow out the shoulder and generally will not stretch the brass at the base.. try a couple test loads at around middle of the load " reduced loads" and see how they turn out.

Last thought I use a medium AI load using powders from the faster side. NO slow ones

Yes, no slow powders; another way is to lightly oil the front of the brass so it can't hold onto the chamber. Be careful with that method.

Neck up to create a false shoulder before fire forming and this goes away in the AI

If you don't want to neck up then use zero jump....bullet touching lands

Light loads for fire forming are a problem too

Cheers guys
Going to get some new brass, start again and try fireformimg with bullet in the lands.
As for powder, I fireformed using h4350 and then made my test loads with h414, which is when the ring appeared. Powders too slow? Was intending on using the H414 for the Barnes as gave best velocity and I couldn't get a load with the 4350 which I use with my other calibre

Not just the bullet touching the lands; it has to be really jammed in hard against them with max neck tension. The false shoulder method is probably the best, but more work, and the bullet jam method will work but you can't be timid about it. Powder? Yours might be too slow for best fire forming; not sure about that.

I like the idea of either method and would probably use the Imr 4350 because of case volume and I have a lot of it

So to clarify, is a false shoulder created by running the Ai neck die through a new brass case?

Expand your neck up to 338 or 358 then run that case into your AI die. That will give you a shoulder. If you are not sure of your die and chamber do it in stages leaving a crush fit

quote:

Originally posted by Greg w:
So to clarify, is a false shoulder created by running the Ai neck die through a new brass case?

One of my .300 Win 700s has a silly long chamber. I run the necks of unfired brass over a .338 expander button then size most of the neck section back to .308. This creates a false shoulder as depicted by 243winxb. Trick is to make sure the bolt closes with some resistance.

I found that a false shoulder results in less case attrition vs seating the bullet into the rifling. There's also the need to extract an unfired round without risk of dumping powder in the receiver.

quote:

In my case I found that a false shoulder held the case against the bolt. Then the case expanded to fit not stretched in length.
If it were mine Id go with a false shoulder.

100% correct roger

Personally I would use powders like acc2015 IMR 3031, one of the 4895s or most medium rate burning extruded powders. roger

So, false shoulder seems to be the best method. Unfortunately in scotland seldom see larger than 30 cal. Certainly no-one i am surrounded with has bigger than 30-06 so getting a die may be tricky. But, i will inquire. one more thing to clarify... when fireforming a few advised not to use a slow powder. After i have fireformed with a medium powder using the method of jamming the round in the lands, is it ok to use the slower powder again for my loads with the fireformed case. Or better stick with the same medium/faster powder, as i was hoping to use h414 for my final loads. Apart from that cheers guys you have certainly helped

For a formed case use what you want. I form with 4895 but use a lot of Rl22

You dont need a .338 die set

All you need is a .338 expander

Yep expander only

I always do the false shoulder method then I anneal after the first firing.

is it possible that the barrel wasn';t set back to form the ai chamber and thus ending up with a chamber that is to long for form the brass???

Was my old uncles rifle he had it rechambered just over a year ago and a 24 inch barrel fitted then had to give up the rifle due to poor health and passed the it onto myself. He was working up loads perfectly fine(which proves it's my own error) but unfortunately no longer with us otherwise I would be able to tap into his wealth of wisdom to find out the problem. I think (hope) that the solutions given here are going to solve the problem

Greg:

IF you can't find an expander let me know.
Think I have heard Kenbro mention having a bigger bore. He's on vacation now, should be back soon though. He'll know where at least.

OR find some machinist with a lathe to turn a new button for you.

What brand dies are you using? IF a name brand like RCBS, send them an e'm and ask them to send a new button for a .338 die. Then get some fine paper and polish it down.

I'd also recommend you anneal the case mouth before necking them up much. Most times you can do it without any problem but, IF you split any, stop and anneal.
Again, pm me.

Good luck,
George

I would be able to tap into his wealth of wisdom to find out the problem. I think (hope) that the solutions given here are going to solve the problem [/QUOTE]

You've tapped into a wealth of wisdom by many who posted above^^^

Lots of guys are very experienced and helpful on this site so use it often.

Zeke

george - thanks for the advice. i am going to contact a few people in my area see what i can acquire

zeke - you're not wrong. Certainly been a help, i will be a regular user!

i could not see the picture and don't know what the problem is but case forming should not be done with reduced pressure loads.

quote:

Originally posted by Phil Brousseau:
i could not see the picture and don't know what the problem is but case forming should not be done with reduced pressure loads.

hi phil here is the picture again
wasn't a reduced load but was around .2 above minimum stated load. Now have a better understanding of what load to use when fireforming.

3 on the left have been fireformed then reloaded and fired when trying test loads nearer maximum load and one on right only been fireformed

the cases look to me like many cases fired in a factory rifle. a lot of times the chamber is cut a little larger than the cartridge you are firing and the brass expands to fill the chamber but the case head being solid does not expand and this creates a ring at the beginning of solid case head. it would be good for you to have a set of the hornady head space comparators so that you can set up your resizing die so as not to push the shoulder back any more than necessary when resizing your cases. this will extend useful case life. i hope this helps, let us know if this is the case or it is some other problem.

I take a paper clip, bend it out with a small hook on the end and grind a point on it and use it to feel the ring from the inside, if its there toss the brass or cut the case off below the ring and use a hack saw to split the case, if a true ring is there then toss the brass, sometimes you get a false ring and the brass is fine?? Why is that, I don't know.

Ive use a faster powder as a rule, even a pistol powder like 11 or 12 grs. of Unique and a case full of Cream of Wheat and a wax plug..

Always hold the barrel UP to get a perfect blown out shoulder. Use enough Unique to just blow out a clean crisp shoulder, no more.

One should always have a chamber cast when dealing with Wildcats. and be sure and keep brass trimmed. Some keep the brass cleaned, but that's not very important within reason, in fact a faded or dull case with take a better bite on the chamber walls than a bright shiney pretty case..