I posted this on the Military forum as well. I am trying to figure out what the original 150 grain bullet 30-06 load used by the military was. Specifically, I am interested in which powder was used and in what quantity.

Thanks,
SRS

The M-2 was loaded with a 152 grain bullet and one of the following powders:

IMR-4895 50 grains
WC-852 50 grains
CMR-100 45 grains

Velocity 2740 fps
Pressure limits 50k psi

I would not want to contradict Riciardelli who is a reliable source of good info, but I suspicion that the powders used by the army were not cannister powders available to the public at the time. After the war, many of those powders were put on the market as surplus.

It was my understanding that H4831, BL-C2, and H4350 were some of those powders. I don't know why I think this, but I believe that bulk version of 4350 was the primary powder, 4831 was the second, and BL-C2 (one of the first ball powders) was the alternative to both. I don't believe ball powders were generally available during the first part of WWII. Their perfection lead to the development of the .308Win (7.62 Nato) after the war. Ku-dude

I know 4895, of course, but what are those other two powders listed by R.? Perhaps they are ball powders. I recall when I was a kid pulling some bullets on military /06 ammo and it was loaded with a ball powder. Is there a good book on the history of all our rifle powders? Be interesting to have such.

Well, I was wrong.

I went back I pulled my copy of Propellant Profiles and American Rifleman Nov/Dec 1994, and did my research as I should have done in the first instance.

First, ball powders were developed and used by the services in the 1930's. Second, H4831 was the first 4831 available to the public as surplus powder, and was made originally by Dupont. The H4831 was pulled from 20mm antiaircraft rounds. Hodgdon also bought tons of BL-C2 surplus which was made by Western. This was pulled from .303 rounds made for the Brits.

H4831 was originally referred to as 4350 data powder (IMR4350 having been made available to the public in 1940). However, H4831 was found to be slightly slower than 4350.

I would surmise that the original propellants were not cannister grade powders, i.e., a powder available to the public generally before the war. The government doesn't have to be obsessed with repeatability in a powder when it is loading a couple of million rounds with a given lot of powder. It orders powder to a general specification, figures out how much is needed to make the bullet go as fast as it wants, and makes cartridges until the powder is gone.

Based upon IMR powders that were available to the public, I'd guess that the powder's specifications were similar to 4895,4064 or 4350. These are the commerically available powders which are most frequently used in this application. Based upon ball powders later available to the public from WW, I guess the 30-06 ball powder was similar to WW748.

I imagine that few, if any, 30-06 rounds manufactured for WWII were broken down after the war. We used the Garand and the Browning MG's in 30-06 in Korea, and I can state for certain that I shot 30-06 rounds made for WWII as a young ROTC cadet at summer camp in 1962. Therefore, I conclude that the powder used in these 30-06 rounds, unlike that in the Brit 303 and 20mm, did not become available in the surplus market.

Ricciardelli is spot on that the M2 ball pushed a flat based spitzer bullet at 2740fps +or- 30fps.

Sorry for my mistake. What is fact above, I have stated as fact. What is surmise, I have identified. I suspect there aren't many folks still alive who could tell us. We are losing that generation daily. Ku-dude

Good update Ku-dude. Thanks. You answered a couple of questions that I had in my little brain as well.

Three hundred Model 1903 cases were loaded with the Frankford Arsenal version of the German �S� bullet in May 1906. The bullet was 150-grains with a velocity of 2,880 fps. The bullet diameter was 0.3085-inches and the length was 1.15-inches. This became the standard bullet for the Model 1906 Ball ammunition. The standardized bullet is enshrined in the Frankford Arsenal Drawing A-637 dated August 18, 1906. I have no idea why it took three months to complete the final drawing, but knowing the military, it was probably red tape.
During May and June of 1906, firings were conducted at the Springfield Armory using the new �S� bullet and 48-grains of powder. On October 15, 1906 the shortened cartridge became known officially as �Model of 1906� and the cartridge specs were established by Drawing 47-3-22 (Class-Division-Drawing) dated May 20, 1907. Frankford Arsenal�s first order with this new bullet was for 15,107,600 rounds and the last lot of �Model of 1906� was FA Lot 671. The powder used was C.P. Pyro, D.G.W. 519. Lot 540 of this cartridge was produced with a cupro-nickel jacket in Jan. 1923 using 48.2-grains of Pyro D.G. I have not been able to determine the amount of Pyro D.G. used between May 1906 and Jan. 1923, but it was no less than 48.0-grains and no more than 48.2-grains of Pyro D.G.
In April 1922, the Frankford Arsenal made National Match cartridges using a 170-grain bullet with a gilding metal jacket, a 6� boattail and the designation of Model 1922-E. The Infantry Board liked it so well they recommended it as the service round. In 1925, the boattail taper was changed to 9� and designated as Cal. 30 Ball Cartridge Model 1925-E. The name was standardized as the M1 on October 24, 1925. In 1926, the bullet weight was changed to 173-grains and loaded with IMR 1147 powder with a velocity of 2,600 fps.
The reason for reciting so much cartridge history that you all probably already knew is because the 150-grain bullet was only used from May 1906 to October 1925. The powder used was Pyro, D.G. in an amount of 48.0 to 48.2-grains. This is just of historical note and it is no longer obtainable. The bullet weight was officially changed to 170-grains in October 1925 and then 173-grains in 1926. Beginning in 1926, all M1 Ball ammo was made using IMR 1147, which is also no longer obtainable.
The limiting factor of SRS�s question is the bullet weight. If this is indeed the data that SRS is looking for, the way the question is worded makes it a kind of tricky question.
Regards,
Ed

Hockeypuck,
Your's is the most informative post I have seen in many a day! Thanks. Please advise of the source for you informative post. I have printed it out for future reference. Ku-dude

Ku-dude,
When in doubt, I always try to go to the best reference I can lay my hands on. In this case it was "History of Modern U.S. Military Small Arms Ammunition, Volume 1: 1880-1939" by Hackley, Woodin and Scranton. Volume 2 covers 1940-1945. The Woodin Institute in Arizona (I think) is probably the largest, most complete collection of military cartridges on the planet. I'd love to spend a few months in there with a Xerox machine, a digital camera and a direct line to Pizza Hut!
Regards,
Ed

Hockeypuck - If you ever need to store some of your vast reference books, I'll be glad to give them some space in my library.
No charge.
And I'll try not to get cookie crumbs and peanut butter on the pages as I read them.

If you have time, maybe you can enlighten us about the 7.62 Nato round. IT has always been more of a "150 gr bullet" hasn't it? Perhaps this was what SRS actually was looking at and not the 30/06 at all. I know people unfamiliar with military headstamps can become easily confused.

Evening Pecos45,
I deeply appreciate your offer to become an auxillary library site for me and I'm really tempted, but not nearly as tempted as my bride. She graciously admitted losing control of the garage to work benches, lathes, drill presses and various cleaning and polishing stations. She didn't moan too much when I won the room over the garage in a poker game and quickly converted it into a reloading room to prevent my kids from moving back in. She nodded knowingly when I converted one of the bedrooms into a computer room and made three stacks of books knee-high as "ready reference". Lord, she hates it when I stack books in her dining room! A friend of mine in Colorado, kindly loaned me all of his Rifle and Handloader Magazines (every one ever published) so I put them in the dining room. What the heck, it seems to go well with the hip high stack of Guns & Ammo. No sense of humor, that woman.
I'll do some research on the 7.62 NATO for you, but it will take a little time. Trying to draw a straight line in time through all of the experimentals might take me longer than I think!
Regards,
Ed

So basically, Ed, you are saying I need to talk to your wife about your books?

Ed,

Thanks! That was exactly what I was looking for. Do you have any idea what modern powder would best approximate Pryo DG?

Pecos 45, I am well aware of the differences between the NATO 7.62X51mm and the old US 7.62X63, to use the same dimension convention.

I am trying to work up some loads of an antique I have and it fired the original '06 loads.

Thanks again, Ed.

SRS

SRS, looking at the ballistic data hockeypuck quoted concerning the original 150-grain '06 ammo from the early 1900's I would have to say that IMR 3031 or IMR 4895 would be the closest to Pyro D.G. (with 150-grain bullets only, of course), although nothing would reprodue Pryo D.G. performance exactly. Pyro D.G. had a reputation for being very hard on barrels, but of course this was in the days before they had figured out that it was corrosive priming that was ruining barrels in a couple of days. They thought it was the smokeless powder (hence "Nitro Powder Solvent")!!

Gentlemen,
I have the following information to add that come from two sources. From the "Headquarters, Department of the Army" Technical Manual TM43-0001-27 June 1981.
Standard .30 cal. M2 ball calls for 50 grains of IMR 4895. Over all cartridge weight is 416 grains, O.A.L. is 3.34 inches, chamber pressure is 50,000 psi, velocity 2740 fps @ 78 ft. from the muzzle. No bullet weight is given.
National Match ammo is the same as above except that the velocity is 2640 fps @ 78 ft from the muzzle, and is head stamped "NM or Match". Again no bullet weight is given.

This info is from a reprint of the "Complete Round Chart" prepared by Ordnance Ammunition Command Joliet IL.
M2 Ball drawing # B6137544, bullet 152-3 grains, propellant IMR 4895 @ 50 grains, WC 852 @ 53 grains, CMR 100 @ 45 grains. Velocity 2740 @ 78 ft.
M1 Ball drawing # B6016308, bullet 174-5 grains, propellant WC 852 or IMR 4198 @ 52 grains, Max Average Pressure is 67,500 psi. No velocity is given.

These books are available from HiTech Ammunition Supply for a rather modest sum. Both are good books, however if one were to purchase only one of the two books I'd recommend "TM 43-0001-27" as being preferable.

TM 43-0001-27 ARMY AMMUNITION DATA SHEETS FOR SMALL CALIBER AMMUNITION $15.
AMMUNITION : COMPLETE ROUND CHARTS For ammunition from 223 cal. through 50 cal. $12
http://www.iidbs.com/hitech