quote:

I weighed the bullets and the powder in a couple of shells and 140 and 57.5. Little hot but is that enough to blow the primer out of the pocket and show pressure on the head of the shell? These shells were loaded in the last 3 years.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:

Not saying the OP didn't use deteriorated powder, but it isn't age that does it. And it smells terrible like acid, not good like ether.
OP has other issues. Some still will go to a book max load and shoot it; not understanding that all rifles are different and you have to work up to a max load.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
There is not enough information to hazard a guess on what has happened.

Each rifle is different.

Was this load developed specifically in this rifle?

If so, what components did you change?

Brass is suspect if this load was used before with other brass.

Funny enough, I seem to notice there is a lot of variation in brass lately from several makers!

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Yes, I understand that word. But I usually base decisions on empirical scientific data, not hyperbole and exaggeration. (I do agree with one thing; many in the shooting community do have some beliefs and theories based on thin air.)
What is missing from this analysis is any evidence that the onset of deterioration of smokeless propellant results in higher pressures.
I submit that the resulting pressure of using powder that is in any stage of deterioration, (and it is easy to tell, as Saeed said, will be lower, not higher. Are their any studies of that? I have never seen one. All the rifle blow ups and blown primers I have seen, were made with new powder.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I routinely use powder which is 30-40 years old.

Never had any problems.

If the powder has deteriorated, it is very easy to see.

quote:

Originally posted by georgeld:
Pulling loads apart that seem to be stuck tight.

Adjust the seater die to push the bullet back
in the case a bit to break them loose. It shouldn't take more than .020" further seating.

You should never need to use side cutters to pull or ruin bullets.

Try this on a few then use your hammer puller.

they should come out then.

George

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Still don't see a study based on age; just high temperature storage of 71 C, which for us mortals, is 159.8 F. If someone is storing their powder at that temp, or they are loading obviously deteriorated powder as in the pictures above, then they deserve what they get.
I am talking about only one variable; OLD powder, stored at more reasonable temperatures.

quote:

Recently the NATO countries were in need of an evaluation procedure that would assure acceptor countries that propellants received from others would have a proven chemical stability for a given period of time when stored at ambient conditions. After many stability tests were reviews and evaluated through the conduct of round robins to insure that strict analytical agreement could be realized among world wide participating laboratories, the above mentioned method for the determination of available stabilizer content was accepted, with the establishment of suitable cut-off points. It was assume that if a propellant withstood a heating period of 60 days at 65.5 ˚C., without undue depletion of available stabilizer content, then that propellant would have a proven chemical stability for 5 years storage at ambient conditions

quote:

Originally posted by JimTx:

The only thing found was that the base one of the 150 grain bullets had corrosion on it And all the other looked within normal limits.

I am not sure what was wrong because my son and I shot five or six times and you would get a normal fire and then you would get on the cartridge head showing excessive pressure in a popped out primer Not sure on accuracy though they had been accurate earlier I had my son shoot a gun at waist high to avoid any eye or face blowback.

Jim

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I have seen all the above myself.

But have no idea what is causing them.

quote:

I had half a truck load of various AK47 ammo brought here.

It was from different manufacturers, all had gotten wet and the primers were corroded.

We pulled all the bullets off.

The powders were in various formats, stick, ball, etc.

We mixed the lot together, and used it for 223 practice ammo.

Worked great.

quote:

Yes, in rare instances smokeless gunpowder can deteriorate. Harboring serious, active concerns about it is a Chicken Little reaction.

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
By the way, "studies" which subject ammunition to extreme heat for long periods of time are designed by suppliers to justify the military dumping huge quantities of perfectly serviceable ammunition and paying exorbitant prices to replace it in order to keep military contractors in the highest of tax brackets. Always check your sources of information for conflict of interest.

quote:

Logistics: An Explosive Cold War Scandal

https://www.strategypage.com/h...es/20180603.aspx#foo

June 3, 2018: For the second time since 2011 there was a major accident at a Russian ammo depot in the Ural Mountains (near the town of Pugachyovo). The recent one took place in mid-May and was much smaller than the one in 2011. The 2018 incident did not kill anyone and only about 2,000 civilians had to be evacuated while nearly 500 firefighters put out the fires and prevented more damage. In mid-2011 this ammo depot, used for the destruction of elderly ammo, contained over 150,000 shells and about half of them blew up after someone apparently tossed a lit cigarette into the dry vegetation and it started a large bushfire. The 2018 accident began when someone was illegally clearing dry grass with a fire that got out of control and spread to the ammo depot.

The 2011 accident caused about 30,000 civilians to be evacuated and nearly a hundred were injured by shell fragments or fire. After the 2011 accident the base was repaired and destruction of the remaining elderly (and dangerous to move) ammo continued, often via controlled explosions that the local civilians heard regularly. But when they hear (or see) this stuff going off at night they know it is an uncontrolled explosion and depending on how close they are to the explosions, or intact ammo warehouses, time to run.

While two accidents like this on one place are rare, these ammo storage site fires and massive explosions continue despite the fact that the Russian armed forces are a fifth the size they were when the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991. For example, in mid-2013 there was an ammo explosion in Central Russia (near the city of Chapayevsk). A fire began in an ammo storage base, forcing the evacuation of over 7,000 people. Two people died and 48 were wounded. It took over a week to deal with the aftereffects. Five warehouses were destroyed and over 20,000 shells, thrown (some for over a kilometer) clear were collected for disposal. The damage cost the military over $5 million.

Disasters like this still occur in Russia, largely because as recently as 2012 there was still over six million tons of ammunition in storage, much of it obsolete and in need of disposal. Getting rid of this stuff is expensive and the government has not allocated enough money to get it done quickly. Russia does not like to publicize this problem and is seeking to get the ancient ammo disposed of as quickly and quietly as possible.

These explosions are also a common problem in countries that have long used ammunition bought from Russia or China. During the communist period, as per the Soviet custom, old ammunition was not destroyed but kept around. Communist countries were poor. It made sense to keep those old mortar and artillery shells (plus bombs and military explosives) for the inevitable war with the enemies of socialism. But the chemical reactions taking place in propellants and explosives, after these items are manufactured, eventually cause dangerous side effects. Over time the compounds that make the propellants and explosives deteriorate and change. This renders the propellants and explosives useless or, in many cases, unstable and very dangerous.

Elderly and unstable ammunition has resulted in many spontaneous explosions on Russian ships as well as ammunition depots. There was another one similar to the Chapayevsk incident in 2012. That one was traced to human error. Because not enough money was spent to properly take care of what is held in storage the workforce was often untrained and careless. Part of this problem arises from the army use of conscripts or minimum-wage civilians to take care of these ammo storage sites. The 2012 accident was traced to a soldier who carelessly tossed aside a lit cigarette, which led to the disastrous fire and explosions.

The danger is not over once the explosions have died down. Many shells and rockets are thrown, unexploded, hundreds of meters from the storage area. These will have to be carefully removed before someone, or an animal disturbs the munition and sets it off. Some of these munitions are buried in the wreckage of damaged or destroyed structures.
Russia has long had problems with elderly, and cranky, munitions. One saving grace was that Russia tended to put these depots in isolated areas, so the casualties were low. However, the Russians took the hint during the 1990s and set about disposing of huge quantities of Cold War surplus munitions.

After the 1990s ammunition explosions like this became increasingly common because of the ammo getting older and not enough trained ammo disposal personnel available. Until about 2010 there was usually one big explosion somewhere, and 10-20 smaller ones, each year. There are still some small ones, but far fewer of the big ones. The aging munitions not only became unstable but also very dangerous just move. Russia had more of a problem with this than China, which could afford to dispose of older munitions and had much less older stuff stored away. This sort of thing has been the cause of many spontaneous explosions on Russian ships and in ammunition depots, even before the Cold War ended in 1991. These accidents also happen while efforts to safely dispose of it are underway.

In 2008 an Albanian ammunition processing facility north of the capital exploded. There were over 200 casualties, including at least nine dead (largely among the 4,000 civilians living nearby). Over 300 buildings were destroyed, and over 2,000 damaged. The facility was used to destroy old ammo, which was a condition for Albania to join NATO. There were about 100,000 tons of old ammunition in Albania, and the destroyed facility dismantled 500-600 tons of the stuff each month. The explosion in Albania probably occurred during the process of extracting explosives from the old ammo. This can be tricky, as the least little spark, can set this stuff off. Worse, older ammo in an unstable state can go off without a spark. This sort of thing is what makes the crudely made Islamic terrorist explosives so dangerous.

Since the 1990s there were more explosions worldwide that involved elderly Russian or Chinese made ammo that was stored improperly. After 2000 the Russians, embarrassed by this as they sought to sell new weapons and munitions to old customers made an effort to help nations, especially in Africa and the Middle East, who still had a lot of that old stuff in storage, on how to inspect and detect ammo that was dangerous. The Russians also provided help in safely disposing of the older, unstable munitions.

Despite that effort, embarrassing accidents still took place, although not as frequently. In early 2014 an explosion in a military ammunition warehouse in southern Congo killed at least twenty and more than fifty were wounded. The cause was a lightning strike that started a fire that reached some of the ammo before firefighting efforts could deal with it. This took place near Congo’s third-largest city, Mbuji-Mayi. Like many African countries, Congo received ammo supplies from Western and Russian sources after colonial rulers left in the 1960s. A lot of this ammo was never used and has simply grown old and unstable. Heeding advice from Russian and Chinese arms experts the African nations were making an effort to improve the security of these ammo dumps, to make theft (which means moving this dangerous stuff) or spontaneous detonation (from age and heat) less likely.

Russia could speak from recent experience in such matters. From 2008-12 Russia suffered 17 of these ammo depot explosions, all of which included some fatalities. While there were five of these incidents in 2012, there were only two in 2013 and even fewer since 2014. The new safety measures were less enthusiastically embraced outside Russia, especially in parts of Africa where fighting was still going on and chaos was the rule. For example, the Congo had planned to upgrade ammo depots to better handle lightning problems, but the Mbuji-Mayi ammo storage site had not yet been upgraded to deal with that. By 2017 Congo was drifting towards another civil war and ammo warehouse safety was no longer a top priority.

Africa has been the scene of many of these explosions, largely because of the climate (often hot and damp) and the laxest safety standards. Another problem in Africa is that ammo storage facilities are often in urban areas. Thus there tend to be hundreds of civilian deaths. As is common in Africa, military units are often based inside major cities, the better to deal with any attempts to overthrow the government. Large quantities of ammunition are often stored on these urban bases, so the troops can quickly handle any contingency. African armies tend to be poorly trained and led, which often expresses itself in sloppy safety procedures and hazardous handling of munitions.

Even recently manufactured ammo can accidentally detonate if not stored or handled properly. You cannot be too careful how you store, and handle this stuff. For example, in 2010 four Ukrainian sailors were seriously injured when two 30mm cannon shells spontaneously exploded. Actually, those shells didn't go off entirely without warning. The Navy reported that the shells were old, beyond their “use by” date, and were probably set off by vibrations ships generate during training exercises.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Though I've not had any trouble with my old powders So far, I'd like to commend Slamfire for his work on this thread. It certainly makes food for thought!