I've read many, many old posts about this topic in this forum, but I must open the topic up again. What methods are you guys using to determine how to set the bullets at or into the lands? I've read about home-grown methods to comparators. What is the easiest way to determine the distance from case head to lands or barrel? Normally I don't really care since I load to mag length which is far short of the lands in all my rifles, but might change for paper punching.

Stoney Point (easiest)
Reeves Tool (most consistant)
Sinclair (only works with some rifles)

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/.../168102794#168102794

All of them take practice and there is a learning curve to getting consistant readings from any of them.

Your turn H C (he will fill you in on the most old fashioned and cheapest way )

Barring the ownership of any of the fine products previously mentioned, if you want it cheap and fast, then, take a sized case and stick a flat base bullet in the neck, pointy end first, and then chamber it. With any luck, the flat base will come to a stop against the lands. That should get you pretty close. Buy yourself the tools though, they're funner!

No special tools required, Take a case that has been FIRED in the particular rifle but NOT resized.

Put a slight flat spot or dent into the case mouth by pressong it onto your workbench.

Next take whatever bullet you plan on loading and color around the diameter of the bullet with a magic marker.

Just barely seat the bullet into the previously prepaired case and chamber in the rifle in question.

Eject case and if required push the bullet from the rifling with a cleaning rod

The case mouth should have removed the marker from the bullet up to where the bullet engauged the rifling giving a good refrence point to measure from

Im amazed at how complicated everyone makes this..

See above picture. It wont stick in the lands.

Neck size a case and cut a slit in it with a thin dremel wheel. Chamber it with a bullet just started, remove, Measure it. Subtract whatever distance you want from the lands ,.000, .005, .010, .020 etc for each spacific kind of bullet.

Put the "slit case " in your die box for future c.o.l./bullet land measurements .

quote:

Originally posted by GSP7:
Im amazed at how complicated everyone makes this..

See above picture. It wont stick in the lands.

Neck size a case and cut a slit in it with a thin dremel wheel. Chamber it with a bullet just started, remove, Measure it. Subtract whatever distance you want from the lands ,.000, .005, .010, .020 etc for each spacific kind of bullet.

Put the "slit case too" in your die box for future c.o.l./bullet land measurements .

I was trying to figure out how a pic case with a cut in pretained to this. We're not mind readers

I've used the split casing before with some success. Just seeing if anyone else had some home-grown ideas. I figure Hot Core has some good info and I'm hoping he'll chime in soon.

Hey Ya'll, I nearly missed this thread. I do agree there are lots of ways to go about determining Seating Depth. And it seems most of them work (to some degree) for the folks recommending them.

I simply prefer to use the time proven Cleaning Rod Method to determine the OCL and then convert it to ODL as shown in this thread.
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I compare the Stoney Point thingy to drinking Wine Coolers - both give you nothing but headaches.

Go to Wal-Mart and look in the Crafts section for wooden dowels. (I used to use cleaning rods until a few guys here mentioned the dowels). Buy several of different sizes, they're cheap.

Get a razor out of a utility knife or a fine ptd mechanical pencil.

Close bolt on rifle, point toward ceiling, drop dowel of proper size down the barrel, and make a mark flush w/ crown w/ the razor or pencil. Then, take whichever bullet is in question, remove bolt, point toward floor, drop bullet into chamber, take pencil (or another piece of dowel or piece of cheap cleaning rod) and hold bullet against lands w/ one hand, point rifle back at ceiling, insert dowel again, lightly push the bullet out of the lands (I go back and forth gently w/ the pencil and the dowel to ensure the bullet is not jambed into the lands), make another mark w/ razor or mech. pencil and there you have it. Seat the bullet a tad deeper or however much you want it off the lands and you are good to go.

Cheap, locally available, easy, and works every time.

Good Luck

Reloader

Thanks again guys. I have tried to pull together all the posts about this subject into a document for future reference. Maybe I won't have to beat this dead horse again.

Measuring from the tip of a bullet will not give consistant results, because bullets are different in length when measured from the ogive to the tip. And your seating die doesn't seat from the bullet tip(it seats from the Ogive). The distance to the lands has nothing to due with what seating depth your rifle will shoot best at. Jam a bullet and start here to find the seating depth which shoots best in your rifle. Jam length is where you take a fired case and neck size it only (to make a dummy round no powder no primer), then seat a bullet extra long, long enough that when you chamber your dummy round the bullet will be pushed back into the case. Carefully eject your dummy round and measure it with a bullet comparator (write this measurement down). You now know Jam length. The amount your bullet will be jammed will be determined by case neck tension and type or brand of bullet. The only way to adjust seating depth from Jam is into the case more (one way only). Next using low to medium pressure loads (real cartridges) start seating bullets in your cartridge in increments of .003 and see which seating depth shoots best. After determining the seating depth your rifle likes best start increasing powder charges (while watching for signs of high pressure) until you find the powder charge that shoots best in your rifle. Some rifles/cartridges like being seated into the lands others don't. Go with what ever shoots best.

How do you know how far you have "jammed" the bullet into the lands and how do you know how far the bullet was pulled back out after the lands tried to hold onto it?

It doesn't really matter how far into the lands you are Jammed because this is just your starting point. Some say to start .003 short of Jam. But I have measured this by seating my bullet into the case until I don't see marks from the lands on my bullet, .001 longer and I did see land marks. Most bullets other than VLD's will be seated into the lands .005 or less. When seating VLD's into the lands the marks the lands make will change as you come out from Jam. Some people say to seat where the marks are more square than rectangular. I have been using Moly coated bullets and have not had any problems getting consistent measurements. No problem with bullet sticking in the lands or pulling out. I have used naked bullets to determine Jam length before and colored them with a black marker to see better without any problems either. If you try this and don't get consistent measurements you could try increasing neck tension using a neck bushing die or a neck die without the expander. I hope some of you that read this will give this a try and report your results. One thing I would mention is DON'T play with seating depth if you are loading near MAX, or at MAX PRESSURES. Reducing case capacity or going from out of the lands into the lands will increase pressures and if you are already at MAX pressure you will create over pressure loads that could or will be DANGEROUS. Always look for signs of high pressure when changing any component including seating depth.

You will need a bullet comparator to make the measurements from the Ogive of the bullet or as close to the Ogive as a bullet comparator will measure.

I have loaded bullets .010 into the lands and then (using the same powder charge not MAX) seated the bullets .020 off the lands and did see an increase in FPS when seated off the lands due to reduced case capacity.

quote:

Measuring from the tip of a bullet will not give consistant results

Yes it will much more consistant than jamming the bullet into the lands. Been there and done that.

When you use the tip method you must create a dummy round for that specific lot of bullets. That dummy round can be used every time you set up your seating die w/ that specific lot of bullets.

Tip measurements and dummy rounds have been much more accurate for me vs. jamming them into the lands which, is pure guess work.

Good luck

Reloader

quote:

malm: ... if you want it cheap and fast, then, take a sized case and stick a flat base bullet in the neck, pointy end first, and then chamber it. With any luck, the flat base will come to a stop against the lands. That should get you pretty close.

Well, that's one of the best forehead-slappers I've come across lately: "Why didn't I think of that!"

Jaywalker

Jam, cram, dowels and tape, backwards bullets and cookies and cake.

Geeze lueeze!

If you really want to know about loading for accuracy ask the benchrest shooters. They will do just about anything to achieve the greatest accuracy. If anyone here has been to a benchrest match how many people are measuring from the tip of the bullet or are using dowels or backwards bullets. Maybe their all wrong and some of the people here should straighten them out.

quote:

If you really want to know about loading for accuracy ask the benchrest shooters. They will do just about anything to achieve the greatest accuracy. If anyone here has been to a benchrest match how many people are measuring from the tip of the bullet or are using dowels or backwards bullets. Maybe their all wrong and some of the people here should straighten them out.

You have alot to learn. We all do.

There are many people that set up dummy rounds by using tip measurements. I think what you are not understanding is that EACH BULLET IS NOT SEATED BY THE TIP MEASUREMENT. The tip measurement is only used for the dummy round which is them used to set up the seater die for that specific lot of bullets.

Very accurate way of loading. Produces groups well less than MOA in my rifles some of which will go 1/2" at 200 and that's all I could ask for.

Have a Good One

Reloader

quote:

Originally posted by Bullet94:
If you really want to know about loading for accuracy ask the benchrest shooters. They will do just about anything to achieve the greatest accuracy. If anyone here has been to a benchrest match how many people are measuring from the tip of the bullet or are using dowels or backwards bullets. Maybe their all wrong and some of the people here should straighten them out.

The question was "What's the easiest way" to determine the distance, not the most sophisticated way.

I've only used the stony point guage and only on one rifle. I followed the directions and tried the "push the bullet back and forth from both ends until you feel the lands" method with great success. I got only a .001 variance after 6 or 7 tries.

I simply take a fired case,put a flat spot in the neck so that a bullet can be started into the neck with finger pressure.Barely start the bullet of choice(with an undamaged tip),and chamber the round gently.Remove the case and measure the overall length.Repeat this procedure with a few more of the same bullets to average the variance in tip dimensions,and you have the overall length for that particular bullet to the lands.Very simple,with no special tools required.

Reloader

I believe I understand your method (dowel method) but the problem I have with your dowel method is if you want to seat into the lands how will you know how far you can go? I believe if you want to only seat to the lands your dowel method should work, but with the Jam method you know the OAL to Jam (measure this with a bullet comparator) and since you can not seat into the lands any deeper there is only one way to change seating depth.

I agree with you I SURE DON’T KNOW EVERYTHING, half the time I don’t even know what day it is. I would like to hear your comments on the above.

Bullet94,

It seems many have their own way of doing things. The problem I have w/ the jam method is I like to be able to unload my chamber if needed and if the bullet is jammed into the lands many times you will pull the bullet out of the case and dump powder everywhere in the action. Not even all of the bench guys jam em' in the lands. Some say it's accurate that way, some don't. Many good tubes will shoot great w/ many seating depths. Many don't jam them for pressure reasons as well.

I've seen rifles that shot quite well w/ the bullets jumping a good ways to the lands.

I you do desire to jam em' into the lands the dowel method can work as well. All you have to do is find the distance to the lands and seat the desired amount further. Chamber said round and see how if you are pushing the bullet in further than desired, adjust as needed.

"More than one way to skin a cat" I guess you could say.

I also wouldn't want any type of hunting rifle rounds to be into the lands.

Have a Good One

Reloader

quote:

Originally posted by Reloader:
Bullet94,

It seems many have their own way of doing things. The problem I have w/ the jam method is I like to be able to unload my chamber if needed and if the bullet is jammed into the lands many times you will pull the bullet out of the case and dump powder everywhere in the action. Not even all of the bench guys jam em' in the lands. Some say it's accurate that way, some don't. Many good tubes will shoot great w/ many seating depths. Many don't jam them for pressure reasons as well.

I've seen rifles that shot quite well w/ the bullets jumping a good ways to the lands.

I you do desire to jam em' into the lands the dowel method can work as well. All you have to do is find the distance to the lands and seat the desired amount further. Chamber said round and see how if you are pushing the bullet in further than desired, adjust as needed.

"More than one way to skin a cat" I guess you could say.

I also wouldn't want any type of hunting rifle rounds to be into the lands.

Have a Good One

Reloader

100% dittos reloader

Reloader

At least people that read this thread can try different ways to find their seating depth that shoots the most accurately. One thing I would like to make clear is that Jam length is only a place to start when trying to find the best seating depth, some say .003 less. I’m not saying that this will be the seating depth that shoots best. Only by trying different depths can the best be found. I would also say that if your seating depth makes the bullets stick you could always seat them into the case until they don’t stick and call this seating depth your MAX if you want. One thing for sure if you don’t try seating to Jam you will never know if this seating depth is the best in your rifle. As I stated in my first post - Some rifles/cartridges like being seated into the lands others don't. Go with what ever shoots best.

I have had great results using Reloader's dowel method in my lever guns (mostly RN hornadys). I do prefer a Sinclair tool for my bolts, as I have noticed significant difference in bullet length when using spire pointed bullets with exposed tips.

Hi

An even easier and consistent method is to not bother measuring the distance at all but within reason seat the bullet a calibres depth so its sitting square. Why make things complicated unless the complication is the bit you enjoy

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by MarkH:

An even easier and consistent method is to not bother measuring the distance at all but within reason seat the bullet a calibres depth so its sitting square.

Mark

Usually in my guns a calibers depth would be jamming the bullet into the lands, which is not preferable in a hunting round. Now you could seat all to the book COAL, but then most if not all would be quite a distance from the lands. That is not always a bad thing cause there are a lot of guns that shoot factory ammo very well indeed. Just think how much better they might shoot if seated close to but off the lands.

Hi Woods

You are absolutly right that accuracy can be enhanced with the correct distance off the lands espciallty if you are using bullets with a high SD like 170 gn 7mm etc. If one is using say 150gn in 308, 139gn in 280 or 300 in 375 then a clalibres depth is consistent and reproducable. The reason I suggest it is that I have all the OAL guages and dowels and for hunting loads its one more variable to fiddle with.
What I found was that finding the most tolerant sweet spot in relation to powder charge negated a lot of fiddling with COAL on std loads.

Regards

MArk

Hey Mark

If you are talking about seating the bullet deep enough so that it will fit and not touch the lands (or even come close), then I halfway agree with you. The problem I have is that "a caliber's depth" is not far enough in almost all cases.

Hi Woods

A calibres depth on a flat base would be a calibres depth. With a boat tail ignore the boat bit which would probably be in 30 cal 0.45". This means that there surface holding the bullet should be fully square in the case neck.
With 170gn 7mm flat base it would probably not fit the magazine box so the seating depth would be based on the size of the magazine box - 0.1".
Just rules of thumb.

Mark

Hey Mark

Let's go through the numbers

caliber / gr bullet / bullet type / length bullet / bullet length minus caliber / trim to length of case minus amount bullet would extend past neck / COAL of actual rifle to lands / distance bullet would have to be jammed into lands to seat 1 caliber deep

338 / 225 / TSX / 1.421" / 1.421"-.338=1.083" / 2.50"+1.083"=3.583" / 3.360" / 3.583"-3.360"=.223"

300 / 200/ Accubond / 1.500" / 1.500"-.308"=1.192" / 2.62"+1.192"=3.812" / 3.605" / 3.812"-3.605"=.207"

270 / 140 / TSX / 1.300" / 1.300"-.277"=1.023" / 2.540"+1.023"=3.563" / 3.460" / 3.563-3.460"=.103"

We all know you can not jam bullets that much.

And I could go on and on. So it looks like in most rifles the bullet would have to be seated a caliber and a half at least. Usually more.

On deep throated rifles and rifles where the throat has been shot out you would be correct but what percentage of rifles is that? And how many have shallow throats and you would need to seat 2 cablibers or more?

Thanks for all the data Woods.
As I posted earlier if you are using long bullets with high sectional densities you will have to use an OAL guage or whatever.All your examples are larger boat tail bullets so yes I agree they need to be seated deeper than a calibre. 200 gn 30 cal bullets and 226 gn 338 cal fall into this catagory.
Secondly I stated all boattail bullets will need to be 1.5 calibres depth.All the bullets you quote are boat tails.

I think in conclusion your data proves my point on the medium for weight calibres such as 150-165 gn 30 cal etc and bullets with either flat bases, round noses or lead cores.