I've always FL resized everything, because I didn't know not to, more than anything else, and I feel confident that I know what I'm doing with it.

I don't have more than one gun in any one chambering (or caliber, for that matter).

so two questions... 1) Should I P-FL or Neck-size, and 2) if so, what is the "best practices" for using FL dies to perform those functions?

PFL sizing is a myth...because it is really just setting up the fl die the WAY IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE....just so that it bumps the shoulder back ever so slightly. Most benchresters are NOT neck sizing anymore. They also want reliable feeding. (although they use special dies that ever so slightly reduce case dimensions where our factory dies do more).
Do yourself a favor and get some headspace gauging tools and set up your fl die properly for a .001-.002 bump of the shoulder and don't bother looking at neck sizing.....it won't offer you any major advantage of brass life (unless you want to get into annealing) or accuracy.

Hey DH

I think first we have to decide on definitions for the differenct sizing methods

Partial Neck Size - PNS - sizing only part of the neck and not sizing any part of the case body or touching the shoulder

Neck Sizing - NS - sizing all of the neck and not sizing any part of the case body or touching the shoulder

Partial Full Length Resizing - PFLR - sizing all of the neck, sizing all of the case body, pushing the shoulder back a minimal amount to get rid of the crush fit but not out of contact with the chamber, ~.001" to .002"

Full Length Resizing - FLr - sizing all of the neck, sizing all of the case body, pushing the shoulder back till there is no contact between the case shoulder and chamber shoulder


You can figure out when you have FLR'ed by just using your gun to see when the crush fit is gone but it is better to have a case gauge like the Hornady thingy.

If you PNS or NS then sooner or later (usually about 3 or 4 firings) you will get a tight fit and the bolt will be harder to close. If you FLR and push the shoulder back so there is no contact then the case will have to expand again to fill the chamber. Repeated FLR will increase the chance of a case head separation. FLR also means the case is loose in your chamber and can be pushed to the side by the ejector button or just by gravity.

IMO PFLR is the only method where you can resize to the exact same dimensions everytime, reduce working the brass in the neck and the contact at the shoulder will help hold the bullet in line with the bore. It is the only method with no detriments.

I always full length resize to where I get a light resistance with my bolt stripped when trying a case in the chamber. Good enough for David Tubb is good enough for me.But all my chambers are machined very well nice fit.
Good shooting

quote:

Originally posted by DannyH:
I always full length resize to where I get a light resistance with my bolt stripped when trying a case in the chamber. Good enough for David Tubb is good enough for me.But all my chambers are machined very well nice fit.
Good shooting

If you have a light resistantce to chambering then you are not Full Length Resizing you are Partial Full Length Resizing.

Here is some reading where they allude to the difference.

And here is some further explanation of the different methods of resizing with the particular quote

quote:

In fact the better way of describing this technique is a “partial full-length resize”, because, we are not working the entire case back to original size, but just the neck area, some of the shoulder and a little of the body

Varmint Al likes to Partial Neck Size

quote:

I achieve better accuracy and case life by only neck sizing my brass instead of full length resizing for each reload. I usually buy the 3 die sets that have a Full Length, Neck Size, and Seating die. Fire-forming your brass customizes it for your rifle. When you fire a round in your rifle, the brass expands to fit your chamber. Then when the pressure is relieved, it springs back elastically a small amount and is then customized to fit your chamber. From then on, if you only neck size, about 3/4 or so of the neck, the reloads will fit your chamber much better than new brass. Usually 3/4's or so of the neck gripping the bullet is sufficient to hold the bullet in place, especially if you shoot varmints and load one round at a time. If you don't have the neck sizing die, you can do almost the same thing with your full length die. Set the die so only about 1/2 of the neck is resized. Because of the tapered case, very little full length resizing will occur. Jim Herbold had a good idea. Leave your Full Length die set for full length sizing and use the 357 Magnum to .38 Special spacer ring to back off the die for neck sizing. One disadvantage is when you only neck size, you cannot mix the ammo between rifles of the same caliber. Also, for your hunting ammo, you should safely, try each round in your rifle to make sure the bolt closes easily on it. For big game or dangerous game it may be safer to take the reduced accuracy and full length resize all your brass.

Three rifles:

.257 Bob: Tried neck sizing - held the bullet in place just fine but the rounds were always a bit difficult to chamber. Went back to FL and haven't had a problem since.

.35 Remington: Lever Gun. Neck sizing was a miserable mistake. Always FL and crimp a tub-mag lever gun. I had to single feed the neck sized cartridges. Sucked. FL fixed that problem.

.350 RMag: Necked a few. They got sticky fast. Went back to FL sizing - haven't had a problem since.

While I understand the idea of Partial or "Near" FL sizing, I just don't care to bother. I FL size everything and I've been very happy with the results, enough so that I wouldn't bother with anything else.

Well, I'm an oddball, I guess. I don't load for a lot of chamberings so I have 2 sets of sizing dies for each caliber I load for. One die is set to PFLR and bump the shoulder back about 0.002" and the other is set for FL sizing. I can't say that Ive noticed an improvement in accuracy by PFLR but that's what I usually do. Each die is marked for its intended operation.
Just what I do.
Bear in Fairbanks

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
Hey DH

I think first we have to decide on definitions for the differenct sizing methods

Partial Neck Size - PNS - sizing only part of the neck and not sizing any part of the case body or touching the shoulder

Neck Sizing - NS - sizing all of the neck and not sizing any part of the case body or touching the shoulder

Partial Full Length Resizing - PFLR - sizing all of the neck, sizing all of the case body, pushing the shoulder back a minimal amount to get rid of the crush fit but not out of contact with the chamber, ~.001" to .002"

Full Length Resizing - FLr - sizing all of the neck, sizing all of the case body, pushing the shoulder back till there is no contact between the case shoulder and chamber shoulder.

Absolutely excellent definitions. P-FLR is for real and totally separate from FLR.

If you are Hunting where Dangerous Game is roaming about(looks at you as if you are a snack) then FLR is the best way to go. You just have to accept that Case life will be shorter.

quote:

You can figure out when you have FLR'ed by just using your gun to see when the crush fit is gone

Once again an excellent, no nonsense recommendation that works great.

quote:

but it is better to have a case gauge like the Hornady thingy. ...

I'd suspect the esteemed Mr. Woods fell over and bumped his head. You need the "Thingy" as much as a horse needs roller skates.

Best of luck to you.

So.....you guys think that buy adjusting the die up about .010" from the shellholder and bumping the shoulder back .002" leaves you with a partially sized case???? (my scenario would be typical with many dies and chambers). So you are not resizing the last .010" of the case which is the thickness of 3 sheets of computer paper tightly stacked?? NOPE I'm sticking with the Kraky Definition...it is NOT a new way of sizing....it is FL sizing properly adjusted.
AND DAMNIT....DON'T DENY ME!!!

All "FL" sizing means is that the case is reduced sufficently to allow chambering in any rifle. That's a silly thing to do if our chamber is on the large size, which many are.

"PFL" only means we are actually taking advantage of a major aspect of what handloading offers; making ammo that fits/works best in our own arms.

Wheither neck sizing helps anything depends on (1) how well our size and neck dies actually match our chambers, (2) the total range of our reloading skills and (3) the accuracy of the rifle itself. Well, add the ability of the shooter too. Fact is, most folks won't see any difference.

quote:

If you have a light resistantce to chambering then you are not Full Length Resizing you are Partial Full Length Resizing.

I am just aware of NOT setting the shoulder back anymore than needed.You can call it what ever you like. I get longer brass life and everything I own shoots mighty fine Been doing it near 40 years.

Hey maybe I can live with that definition...

PFL==Particular Firearm Length.

HMMM--it does work for me.

it is possible that I am regretting asking this question... but I Think the correct answer is:

"you already FLR'd everything in this batch, so go shoot it up and worry about it later..."

RIGHT!

I regard "full length sizing" as reducing the dimensions of the case back to within specs for factory new cartridges. I think that the industry regards the term this way, also.

Neophytes (and some people who have been at it long enough to know better) believe that simply setting the die to bump against the shell holder is "Full Length Sizing". In some instances, it may well be approximately equal to "full length sizing", but with certain combinations of dies and shellholders, it may reduce the case to the point that there is much more headspace than desirable.

Proper FL sizing reduces a case only enough that it will chamber in ANY chamber that is within SAAMI specs.

On the other hand, partial full length sizing means that the full length sizing die not only engages the neck, but also the upper body of the case such that the case is held in concentricity as the neck is reduced to the proper dimension to hold the bullet. PFL sizing may or may not set the shoulder back, but most reloaders prefer, particularly for hunting loads, that the shoulder is set back minimally to assure that there is no significant resistance to impede cycling the action as the bolt is turned down. Partially FL sized cases will readily chamber in the rifle in which they were originally fired, but may not necessarily chamber in another chamber, even if it is within SAAMI specs.

Neck sizing touches neither the body nor the shoulder of the case, and may include part or most of the neck. It usually cannot be accomplished (using bottleneck cases depending on the shape of the case and the tightness of the die) with a FL die as the FL die usually engages the case shoulder before a sufficient portion of the neck has been sized. The use of a conventional neck die may result in a neck that is slightly cocked to one side or is not concentric with the body of the case since the body is unsupported in such a die. Various neck sizing dies like the Lee Collet and the "S" die seek to remedy this through other strategies.

Bottom line: Assuming that a reloaded cartridge is intended to be fired ONLY in the gun in which it was originally fired, then the least sizing that allows it to dependably rechamber is the most desirable. Using conventional dies, this is typically the "Partial Full Length" method (which kraky erroneously insists is the same as full length sizing -- no it ain't because a FL-sized shell should fit in any gun). Using the more sophisticated specialty neck-sizing dies also produces acceptable rechambering if the pressure of the load, elasticity of the brass, and springiness of the action all allow it.

But the one thing that is almost certain: If you simply ram your shell holder hard against the die bottom, you'll likely end up with undersized brass, it will rapidly become work-hardened, and prematurely will fail due to a head separation (which may also spew gas and brass into your handsome face and winsome eyes.) If this happens, you probably won't know whether you hit that damn deer or not.

now to sort out how to adjust my RCBS dies to "bump the shoulder back" just a smidge.

The instructions for adjusting your RCBS die for FLR is as follows:

quote:

Screw the Competition Sizer Die into the reloading press until the sizer die touches the standard shell holder with the ram at the top of the stroke. Lower the ram and set the die 1/8 to 1/4 turn further down so the press cams over center.

It will depend upon the size of your chamber as to whether this is correct or not, but in all the rifles I reload for (over 40 at last count), that is correct. Now if 1/8 turn to 1/4 turn further down will push the shoulder back to FLR, then if you set your rifle up and size one with the ram just touching the shell holder, that should create a tight fit when you chamber the resized case. Relube the case, loosen the lock ring and adjust the die in a smidgen more and resize the case. Chamber it and if it is still hard to close the bolt, loosen the lock ring and adjust it a smidgen more. Continue resizing and chambering until the "crush fit" lessens.

There is a fine point where the bolt will close with just a little bit of resistance. Right around there is where the die is pushing the shoulder back just a little. Adjust to your needs. If you adjust it down too much then the bolt will close with no resistance and you have gone too far.

Another excellent, right-on-the-nose post by Mr. Woods. Good to see he has recovered fron the bump on the head.

I full length resize everything. I also use a small base sizer for levers, pumps and autoloaders,

Good lord, they're debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

If you are not having a firm "cam over" when you bring your piston to the top on your resizing stroke --as Mr wood outlined in one of his later post-- you are NOT full length resizing.
FYI Kraky, I am still impressed by how you tend to speak for ALL of the stool shooters. Would you be upset if I told you I knew bench shooters that DID NOT resize their brass. At all. How's that for a tight chamber.

Well Stillmanbee you kind of got me...I'm not a benchrester but I do read some articles and dream about it. Perhaps I shouldn't have said most benchresters are not neck sizing anymore.
Although I suspect the good ones aren't. MOst of the articles I see on new world records aren't being set by those purely neck sizing (or not sizing at all). What I am seeing is custom made fl dies....with alot of attention paid to the neck area.
I always like to learn more....and.....I was off my stool today and at the shooting range!

quote:

Good Lord, they're debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Sounds like a good way to spend some time to me...

The oft repeated "Don't neck size hunting loads!"
annoys me, always has...

Frankly I wouldn't carry ANY ammunition into the field that has not previously been cycled through the rifle I intend to fire it in...

IF it fits the chamber at home, it'll fit the chamber later.

I do neck size ammunition for bolt action rifles
it's not worth my time for anything else.

But with neck sizing comes an eventual need to bump back the shoulder.

AD

For what it's worth, Sierra Bullets full length sizes all their cases used to test bullets. For calibers that they can, a Redding S Full Bushing die's used with a bushing a thousandth or two smaller than loaded round neck diameter. Fired case shoulders are set back a couple thousandths; the bolt closes easily without any "crush fit." They shoot the ammo in rail guns using standard SAAMI chambers with metered, not weighed, powder charges. The best of their match bullets stay under 1/4th MOA at 200 yards. I've seen some of their 30 caliber HPMK bullet's 10 shot test groups around 1/10th MOA in their 100 yard range.

Many test groups shot with such full length sized ammo in match rifles with SAAMI chambers are smaller than long range bench rest records. These are 10, 20 and 40 shot groups well under 1/2 MOA at 600 yards or greater. Here's what my Palma rifle does with full length sized cases as described above. Chamber's SAAMI except for a bit shorter throat for 155 grain bullets seated to 2.800 OAL to engage the lands a little bit.