Isn't the Obama gun control scare tactic over yet? I need to by some 375 bullets but they keep getting snatched up down south before they can get here. Very frustrating. That goes for powder too.

The guy's in New Zealand have the same problems.

Nope; the hoarders are still hard at work, stacking up several lifetimes supplies of reloading supplies, and 22 ammo. I know, everyone else calls it stocking up on everything they can find, and it is their right to do so, but I know what it really is. It is cheating the legitimate reloader who does not buy more than he will use in his, and his grandchildren's lives. We all suffer and the OCONUS guys suffer even more.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Nope; the hoarders are still hard at work, stacking up several lifetimes supplies of reloading supplies, and 22 ammo. I know, everyone else calls it stocking up on everything they can find, and it is their right to do so, but I know what it really is. It is cheating the legitimate reloader who does not buy more than he will use in his, and his grandchildren's lives. We all suffer and the OCONUS guys suffer even more.

Don't know if I well live to see but in some estate sales there is going to be a lot of neat stuff for sale.

A number of years ago I had a 375 Whelen built for the express purpose of shooting cast bullets. The loads used were for the 35 Whelen jacketed bullet loads with the same bullet weight in cast.

Jim

I have friends who are stockpiling components; I tell them that I can't wait for their estate sale, for which, I assure them, I will be around to attend.
Sure, you can always cast or swage your own bullets. And back in the dark ages, I used to make .375 bullets from 9mm brass; made a simple nose forming die for a RockChucker and filled them with lead. They actually shot pretty well.

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The guy's in New Zealand have the same problems.

Yep, we sure do. Seems not bad now for primers but some powders and projectiles are just not available. Frustratingly, the suppliers here have their orders in but none can say when they will have stocks again.

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
The guy's in New Zealand have the same problems.

Yeah, but we're your next door neighbors, maybe throw a few over the fence.

Grizz

I,'ve had enough, throwing in the towel. Selling the .22 rifles, tired of the horse shit. Keeping the S&W .22 revolver and the center fires. If I can reload it, I,m all for it. .22 rifle with no ammo, turns into an expensive stick..

Much of the 22 ammo is being bought up by the hoarders and preppers, many of whom have no intention of ever shooting it. As one explained to me, she gets it for trading stock once the world ends. She does not even own a gun, so I told her that I don't need to stockpile food; I will just take hers. She looked very confused (prepper look).

There are lots of .22 RFs listed at Midway. Most are target loads and range from "ouch" expensive to "you've gotta be kidding my ass!" expensive.

But there's also this: Aguila SuperExtra Ammunition 22 Long Rifle 40 Grain Plated Lead Round Nose Box of 500 (10 Boxes of 50) for $40. Granted, it's not ideal, but if you aren't persnickety about your 22s, it's not bad (0.08 per round, before shipping).

When things were impossibly tight, I got what I could: I tried SK Rifle Match, SK Pistol Match and Norma TAC.

I found a whole new world. Expensive, sure. But still cheaper than my CF rifles, really accurate and deadly on those ground squirrels my wife want's me to kill.

Germany has the powder problem sincerely. Bullets are reasonably available.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
Don't know if I well live to see but in some estate sales there is going to be a lot of neat stuff for sale.

Well, none of us know how long we will live (except I suppose Donald Trump, who seems to have a simple pat answer for everything). But I've seen a couple of these panic buying/hording events take place. My well-stocked reloading larder, which will last my grandkids for their foreseeable shooting careers, was largely assembled from the garage and estate sales of hoarders who had passed on (and never had the pleasure of "surviving" whatever catastrophe they and various talk radio hosts attempted to conjure up.) I suspect you'll have a shot at some of the current hoarders' stocks.

quote:

My well-stocked reloading larder, which will last my grandkids for their foreseeable shooting careers, was largely assembled from the garage and estate sales of hoarders who had passed on (and never had the pleasure of "surviving" whatever catastrophe they and various talk radio hosts attempted to conjure up.) I suspect you'll have a shot at some of the current hoarders' stocks.

I learned that gunpowder has a shelf life, that as gunpowder goes bad, it outgasses nitric acid gas, in bulk it will auto combust, and in the shell, old gunpowder will blow up your gun. Basically, gunpowder not only does not get better with age, it gets worse. Knowledge about the thermo chemistry of old gun powder has totally explained a number of problems I have had with old gunpowder and old ammunition. And since then, I have learned to shoot the stuff up within a couple of decades and not plan on keeping the stuff much longer.

Bullets, cases, primers, last orders of magnitude longer than gunpowder, so stock piling these might be prudent. But loaded ammunition and gunpowder, hoard only what you will use, and use it up. As advice, pass up on any gunpowder made prior to 1990. A reasonable lifetime for single based powders is 45 years, 20 years double base. Powders have gone bad before these dates.

I am currently shooting around 4000 rounds a year of match 22LR. I am glad that I was able to get a deal on five cases of Lapua and a couple of cases Eley, last year, for in one year, the manufacturers raised prices $200-$300 per case. Match ammunition that was $1200 a case (not cheap) is now $1500 a case. Ouch before, ouch afterwards.

But, I expect to shoot it all up within the decade.

If smokeless powder goes bad if made before 1990, then I guess I will have to throw away all I have; I bought it by the case in the 1980s and 1990s.
But it doesn't. I have WW2 powder and ammo that is still perfect.

quote:

If smokeless powder goes bad if made before 1990, then I guess I will have to throw away all I have; I bought it by the case in the 1980s and 1990s. But it doesn't. I have WW2 powder and ammo that is still perfect.

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If smokeless powder goes bad if made before 1990, then I guess I will have to throw away all I have; I bought it by the case in the 1980s and 1990s.

This is Federal's advice on the lifetime of their ammunition:

Federal Ammunition :
http://www.federalpremium.com/company/faq.aspx

What is the shelf life of ammo and storage?

Store reloading components and ammunition in a cool, dry place, protected from direct exposure to sunlight. If stored properly there is a 10-year shelf life on loaded ammunition.

I would like those who claim that the storage life of gunpowder and ammunition is infinite to explain why out of all the chemical substances in the Universe, why only gunpowder is immortal. I would like a good dissertation on this, touch on the thermo chemistry, the kinetics, and why this high energy compound will never break down to a low energy compound.

The lifetime of gunpowder is highly unpredictable, in fact, because it can't be predicted exactly the Air Force uses a the term "indeterminable". Which means, unpredictable. The Armed forces have to inspect their inventories and they chemically test gunpowders, breaking the stuff down and measuring the percentage of stabilizer in the gunpowder. I know you will never look at it, but it is worth examining all the different tests the military uses in Mil Std 286.

When powders get around 20 years old, that is when the first problems typically surface. I am having pressure and corrosion issues with 1994-6 ish Accurate Arms AA4064. It is going bad. I do have IMR 4064 from the early 90's and it is still good, but there is pin point corrosion in the can.

For whatever reason, mid nineties Vihtavuori is starting to be reported as deteriorating. Maybe the Finns in the Arctric cold are not putting as much stablizier in their powder as they should.

Has anyone else had Vihtavuori N140 corrode in loaded ammo?

http://www.falfiles.com/forums...thread.php?p=3745264


Have you ever had modern smokeless powder go bad?


http://www.ar15.com/archive/to...ml?b=6&f=42&t=332006

quote:

I had some H5010 powder go bad earlier this year. I purchased four pounds of this powder second hand so I can't be sure how it was stored prior to me acquiring it (I'm guessing by the lot # that is was made in 1994), but I did check to make sure each bottle was sealed. I then stored it a trunk inside for just over a year. When I found the powder, it had been about four months or so since I last looked in the trunk and was a little surprised to say the least. The smell was very noticeable as I opened the trunk and it didn't take long to see where it was coming from. As you can see from the pics, one bottle was way gone and a second was going bad as well. The two on the right seemed alright and were still sealed, but I didn't want to take a chance on them as I figured 220 grs of bad powder in a 50 cal may not be too forgiving.

I was curious how the powder looked and after scraping was was left of the lid and seeing a small but visible green cloud dissipate, I found the powder was almost one solid lump that I had to break apart. I also wanted to see how this stuff would burn was surprised to find that the powder would barely smolder when held to direct flame. The other three bottles all seemed to have similar, normal burn rates.

As a side note, I had always read that powder made a good fertilizer, but if your powder looks as bad as the one in the pics, don't put it on any plants that you care about. My good intentions were not enough to keep my wife from being mad at me for killing some of her roses

Good pictures in this thread:

Has anyone else had Vihtavuori N140 corrode in loaded ammo?

http://www.falfiles.com/forums...thread.php?p=3745264


Vihtavuori N150 gone bad

http://m14forum.com/ammunition...i-n150-gone-bad.html

quote:

Well I was going to work up a load today with Vihtavuori N150, but when I opened the jug, whew, what an odor!!! Then gold colored fumes started coming out of the jug. Don't know how old this jug is, it was given to me about a year ago.

Tried to get a good picture of the fumes, but the wind kept blowing it around.

Anyways, keep an eye on your powder.

quote:

But it doesn't. I have WW2 powder and ammo that is still perfect.

How do you know? What is the percentage of stabilizer left in that powder?. How many days does it take to fume the powder? What is the average pressure of one of those fired cartridges? What do you know about that old stuff outside of wishful thinking?

Personal experience from using that same old powder you say is no good. You must be storing your powder in very hot temps for it to react like that. Like I said, I have powder from WW2 that is still perfect. Ammo too.
I get your warnings; everyone should watch their powder. Here is what I will do; everyone who reads this, please send me all your powder that was made more than 20 years ago. I will deal with it appropriately.
No one mentioned black powder; I have a can of FFFFG made in 1930 and of course, it is still good.

While I used to purchase old estate sales gunpowder, and I have shot up almost all of it, I am no longer going to buy old damn gunpowder anymore. I am no longer going to buy "surplus military" gunpowder because I poured out about 75% of the stuff when it went bad. That was hundreds of dollars of worth of old damn gunpowder, money that would have been better spent if I had bought new gunpowder. While I would have bought less new gunpowder, I would still have it, while the old gunpowder went into a drainage ditch.

Old gunpowder is not worth wasting money purchasing, unless you get it for next to nothing, and the older it is, the closer to nothing that it is worth.

And if the kegs of old damn gunpowder, that have been stored in the house, garage, attic, autocombust, because gunpowder deterioration produces heat, that cost has to be accounted for somewhere.

That picture of fuming N150, the owner was lucky it had not autocombusted yet. He was lucky he did not wake up in a burning house.

Blackpowder is different. That stuff is chemically stable and will last for centuries, though I don't have any 100 year old blackpowder to test against new, nor do I have the ballistic equipment to compare pressure curves. With a couple of Google searches you can find stories of people being killed by Civil War Artillery shells. As long as the stuff is kept dry, it will go bang.

Smokeless propellants are different. They are also chemically unstable. Old smokeless shells are dangerous as hell because the energy to activate the propellant decreases over time.

I have to agree it must be reacting to temp of the storage area. I have some original H4831, I shot some just a few months ago, and it gave the same vel. in the same rifles it did when I got the keg 30+ years ago.
I'm the " gun guy" in this area. I get called by all the little old ladies who want their dead husbands reloading stuff out of the house.
I end up with lots of old powder, not sure what to do with several cans of AL 7 and AL 8 yet.

Just for what it's worth. SAMMI: Smokeless Powder: Properties and Storage

"HOW TO CHECK SMOKELESS POWDER FOR DETERIORATION"

"Although modern smokeless powders contain stabilizers and are basically free from deterioration under proper storage conditions, safe practices require a recognition of the signs of deterioration and its possible effects. [ . . . ]

Proper storage includes being in a cool, dry place with the powder not in direct sunlight.

I have a box of .45 ACP from 1942 that was reimported in the 90's. I bought a few hundred rounds and still have 50 or so left. That being said I think my oldest can of powder is 15 years old, maybe an odd ball acriend gave me might be older.

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
I have to agree it must be reacting to temp of the storage area. I have some original H4831, I shot some just a few months ago, and it gave the same vel. in the same rifles it did when I got the keg 30+ years ago.
I'm the " gun guy" in this area. I get called by all the little old ladies who want their dead husbands reloading stuff out of the house.
I end up with lots of old powder, not sure what to do with several cans of AL 7 and AL 8 yet.

I envy you your dilemma . . . there's a wide variety of possibilities. Almost an embarrassment of riches (assuming the powder has not degraded).

The more complicated the chemistry of a powder the more chances it has to deteriorate...

Black powder is chemically simle, as two of its components are "elemental", carbon and sulfur, the third component is Sodium Nitrate, a relatively stable "salt" and the "powder" is technically an "intimate mixture" of those three items and only the Carbon and the Sodium Nitrate are Critical to the mixture, the sulfur is not... (sulfur functions as an "emulsifier" to make more consistant grains)

The deteriorating smokeless powder above is exhibiting an outgassing of Nitric Oxide or Nitrogen Tetroxide and either compound is "Bad stuff"

Making of "Stable" nitrogen compounds is all in the "wash" steps, in which differences in solubility in water. ethanol, methanol and acetone are used to remove the undesired compounds that eventually break down...

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