Finally got the opportunity (kinda had to make it) to test-fire the duplex loads for the M44 pistol bullets and a squibb load for the 150 grain .311s. Here are the chrono results. I am not gonna publish the duplex loads here. I'm concerned they might get misinterpreted or misused or both. The sqibb load is less politically 'volatile', but it's still 'experimental', so I won't post it either. However, should anyone be interested in the loads, you can e-mail me and I'll give them to you. There were two different loads using two different primers, but all used the 85 grain bullet. Loads 'A' and 'C' used CCI 200 Large Rifle primers, and loads 'B' and 'D' used CCI 250 Magnum Rifle primers. The squibb loads,'E', used 200s.

.........Avg. velocity.... sample STD....Sample size
A .......- 3107fps ...........12fps .............N=20
B .......- 3204fps ...........4fps ...............N=20
C .......- 3092fps ..........18fps ..............N=20
D .......- 3342fps ............7fps ..............N=20
E .......- 1014fps .............6fps .............N=20

As you can see, the primer makes a significant difference. 100fps between A & B and 150fps between C & D. All charges were compressed. (Except of course the squibb.) A & C are statistically 'not different', however, B & D are statisticaly 'different'. Note also the lower standard deviation of the cartridges with the 250 primers.

All fired primers appeared identical - very, very slight cratering. I consider this more of an enlarged firing pin hole issue than a pressure indication, as the cratering of standard milsurp ammo is greater than what is seen in these loads. I think I am gonna try one more 'increment' above 'D' and see what the pressure signs are.

The squibb load's muzzle velocity was below the 'standard' figure for sound velocity in air - 1075 fps - and I was very pleased with that since it was 'applied alchemy' that got me to the load. However, it was still a pretty loud report. I am almost certain that the ambient air conditions (elev. 100 ft, temp 0 degrees C) lowered the speed of sound below 1075f/s, but I haven't calculated it yet. It's immaterial anyway, as I am looking for a MV around 950f/s. 1000f/s is too close to sound velocity for my tastes.

Finally, here are the muzzle energies for each load.

A - 1819 ft-lbs
B - 1933 ft-lbs
C - 1802 ft-lbs
D - 2106 ft-lbs
E - 391 ft-lbs

Paul

[ 11-20-2002, 23:37: Message edited by: gitano ]

Wow, got a yawn this time too.

Paul

Paul,

What cartridge are you loading here?

George

Thanks for asking.

This is a 7.62x54R in a M44 (Russian) Mosin Nagant. The Reader's Digest version (since the original post is WAY back a couple of weeks ago) is:

I got the rifle for $50 from Century. Put a 'scope on it and loaded some .308's (the diameter most often used in the US with this cartridge). Took it to sight in the 'scope, and couldn't consistently hit a 3'x4' target backer (let alone the target) at 40 yards with the .308s. The milsurp ammo (.311) was much better, but in fact was only about 24 MOAs. When I go the rifle home, I slugged the bbl and found it was .312, AND that there was practically NO rifling for the last 1/2 inch of the muzzle, and nope, it wasn't counter-bored.

Since the selection of .312 rifle bullets is pathetic, I decided to try some 32 Special pistol bullets that have nominal diameters of .312. I got 65, 75, 85 and 95 grain HPs and loaded some up. Muzzle velocity was about 3000 f/s with compressed loads of I4064 for the 85s. I was sure I could get more out of the case, so I decided to try some duplex loads. (I have had very good success with duplex loads I developed for some .30 cal sabots.) The results of the first 7.62x54R duplex loads are above. (The original simplex load results were posted in the original post two weeks ago.)

I intend to try another step up in the duplex loads; my goal is 3500 with the 85 grainers. I doubt that I will get the 65 grainers to go much faster.

Actually, contrary to how it might appear, speed is NOT my primary goal. Accuracy is. However, given the paltry number of rifle bullets in .311 and especially .312, I thought I would use pistol bullets. If I'm gonna hafta use light-weight pistol bullets, I certainly want them 'zipping along' if possible.

On the other end of the spectrum, are the squibb loads. Quiet, sub-sonic loads are quite common in Europe, and particularly in Finland with the 7.62x54R cartridge. Hence my foray into that 'arena'.

Agan, thanks for asking.

Paul

[ 11-21-2002, 20:49: Message edited by: gitano ]

Some random thoughts.

Even with your squib loads, the barrel on the M44 is so short, you may never get them to be "quiet."

I have found the selection of .311 and .312 rifle bullets to be less than impressive, althought there are some. Sierra, Hornady, and Remington have some. Go to Midway's website and look at their listing for "303 Caliber, 7.7mm Japanese, 7.62x39mm (.310-.312)"

There are several options available, from 123 grain to 215 grain.

I'm personally experimenting with a Sierra Pro Hunter 125 grain .311 bullet and a Hornady Interlock 150 grain bullet for my M39. Starting with Varget powder to see how that works.

Tim

While you may consider the selection of .312 bullets pathetic it is actually much better now than it has been in my shooting lifetime.

Hornady, Sierra, Remington, Speer, Woodleigh, Hawk, and others make bullets weighing from 125 to 215 grains.

There is actually a web site dedicated to the cat sneeze loads. The author is Finnish. See HOW TO HANDLOAD SUBSONIC RIFLE CARTRIDGES. As you can see the author concentrates on the cartridge for which you are loading.

Thanks for the info on locating bullets. I'll look. Personally, I'd like something in the 125 to 135 range. Certainly there are more today than in recent history, and I was not suggesting that manufactures should be making a wider selection for a rather esoteric caliber. Rather I was just whining.

Hobie, with regard to HOW TO HANDLOAD SUBSONIC RIFLE CARTRIDGES... that's where I got started.

Thanks,
Paul

Paul,

Good to see you started there, but you didn't say so.

What exactly are the parameters you are working with? What do you want to achieve, that is, what is your goal?

If your barrel is washed out towards the muzzle, I'd suggest rebarreling. Although I can't put you onto a source at this minute, somebody out there must have barrels. That front sight isn't set far enough back that you could cut off that �" and recrown, is it?

Yeah it is Hobie, (set back far enough to cut off 1/2 an inch that is) but I'm a little averse to modifying 'correct' milsurps. In the end I probably will have to. My first 'modification' will be to counter-bore the muzzle about .5". The Russian arsenals often did that. Beyond that, I'll have to think long and hard about spending too much on a $50 milsurp.

Here are my goals:

1) Accurate rifle.
2) Easy on the shoulder. These little carbines have a a variety of applications because of their shorter lengths. First, they fit shorter-statured people like women (my wife and daughter). With a little reduced recoil, the 'girls' can enjoy shooting more, and more often. Second, they make good 'plane guns'. In AK, it's the law that small plane pilots carry a firearm with them in the plane at all times. The M44 fits nicely in Cubs and PA-11s etc.
3) With the squibbs, I would like a VERY accurate, quiet, low-recoil round primarily for providing my daughters with a good rifle that will 1) allow them to practice more, and 2) give them confidence by virtue of excellent accuracy.

Of course there are a variety of rifles that could fulfill all of those criteria. I am also however, looking to 'salvage' this old warhorse. If it doesn't work out, I won't shed any tears, but I believe that too many rifles are relegated to the scrap heap when a little extra effort coud find some 'ballistically redeeming value' in them. And I enjoy the 'work'.

Paul

Paul,

Sounds like you are a Mosin Nagant enthusiast....me too. I have 2 M39's and an M44 with bayonet and laminated stock.

Are you aware of the many websites dedicated to the MN?

If not, e-mail me and I'll send you links,

Tim

You're just jealous because the voices don't talk to you!