As of this writing I am not reloading but will in future but I trust the advise of those who do!!! Last night I took a 145# doe shooting my Remmington 721 chamberd for 30-06, the shot was 120+ or - a few yards useing Hornady Custom 150 Grain BTSP Interlocks.The problem she ran about 40 yards before expiering. We had a very wet summer here in south georgia and if I didnt have my Jack Russell to track her in the high weeds "some over 10 feet" I would never have found her. Can anyone suggest a better round that will stop them in their tracks?
Posts: 6 | Location: dawson/georgia | Registered: 05 November 2003
Hi Doug, I've shot a bunch of deer with a bunch of different calibers from the .22's through .35 Whelen and 12 & 20 gauge slugs and I think that without breaking some major bones, its pretty much normal to get a short run from a heart/lung shot deer.
You didn't mention the location of the hit, but many lethal shots may not produce an immediate drop. I used to hunt areas that required quick recovery for one reason or another and I always (reluctantly) used shoulder shots to anchor the deer on the spot. Downside is meat damage. Some like neck shots, but I find them too iffy for most situations. You might see more spectacular results with a very light, high speed bullet, but again, meat damage is bad.
I would think your '06 would be about as effective as any other reasonable deer caliber and your deer's reaction was average.
Posts: 588 | Location: Maryland | Registered: 08 April 2003
Thanks for the reply it was a clean heart shot with no exit wound. my thoughts were to switch to something with more foot pound energy or larger grain wider expanding bullet
Posts: 6 | Location: dawson/georgia | Registered: 05 November 2003
If it(bullet) didn't exit I'd say more expansion isn't what you need. Perhaps you need less for an exit wound. MAybe a heavier better constructed bullet.
The bullet you used is a perfect deer bullet. That's just the nature of hunting. Was the animal aroused to your presence in anyway or was it a situation where the animal felt absolutely no danger. I have a friend that hunts private land from a tree stand and drops deer with a 22.250 like the hammer of Thor but they never feel any danger before the shot. ON the other hand we do most of our deer hunting where there are alot of hunters and deer are ever alert and on the move. A 40 yd run from such a deer and hit of a 30-06 is not at all uncommon.
Posts: 2002 | Location: central wi | Registered: 13 September 2002
What you saw was a typical reaction to a heart shot, "take off like hell". It doesn't seem to matter too much as to the caliber(within reason) if you hit the heart they're off to the races.
Shoulder shot was recommended by a previous post and I agree that is the safest way to anchor your deer. Better to have 90% of a deer that none at all has always been my motto. This aiming point will give you an allowance also for slightly missplaced shots that will still be in the kill zone.
IMO, your 30/06 and bullet combo is ideal for deer.
BigBullet
Posts: 1224 | Location: Lorraine, NY New York's little piece of frozen tundra | Registered: 05 July 2003
Yup, I'd have to back up Zach & kracky {edit: and bigbullet}
As Zach says, perhaps a heavier bullet. Since the bullet stopped, the deer absorbed all the energy. An exit wound would allow much easier tracking.
kracky points out that an alerted deer will usually be harder to drop and I do agree with that to a point, but jump to the bottom of kracky's post and see that he also reiterates the liklyhood of a short run following a good hit with a sufficient power.
With the 30.06 bullet expanding violently enough to stay in, I would think the shock was well above the level delivered by a .22-250, which derives much of it's killing power from the immediate expansion.
I think a slightly heavier bullet will help in recovery of the game via complete penetration, but I would expect the same reaction (run a little) to even the substantially higher energy of a larger cartridge. I get (and expect) the same results when shooting deer broadside with a 6.5-300WbyMag, a 140 grain bullet at 3,400 FPS. To me, preventing the deer from running at all will require bone or CNS (central nervous system) hits and more power won't help.
Ed
[ 11-06-2003, 00:29: Message edited by: eshell ]
Posts: 588 | Location: Maryland | Registered: 08 April 2003
I think your load is fine, although I am not fond of boattailed bullets due to jacket/core separattion. I've heard that the Hornady Interlock does not suffer from this as much, though. A heart-shot deer will usually take off in high gear and then drop, just like yours did.
You may have optimum upset with a 105 howitzer. No cartridge can guarentee that game animal will drop in it's tracks when struck by the bullet. My 12 gauge slug rifle has the best track record for maximum upset on deer sized game animals. There is absolutely no possible way you can predict how any game animal will react when struck by a hunting bullet. You may want to give the 125 or 130 grain bullet a try, but keep your shots behind the shoulder in the heart lung area.
There is only one caliber/bullet combo I have used that I can honestly say has anchored deer in their tracks. This is a a 338 Win shooting 200 grain Hornadys at 2700 fps. Have used this load on 2 midwestern whitetails, and neither one moved. One was shot at 110 yds, the other at about 50. But regarding your choice of bullet/caliber/shot placement, it's hard to beat. I have shot a number of deer with the trusty '06, but very few of them have dropped at the shot. IMHO, the only way to increase the chances of an animal dropping with a 30-06 is to break the shoulder.In your situation, where cover is extremely thick, either look at precise neck shots, breaking shoulder bone or get a very well- trained scent dog! Best of luck in the tall grass.
I have shot over 100 deer and have seen more then twice that many shot. My dad has shot a couple of hundred. You lung or heart shoot them they can run a 100 yard or so or less. Saying a 06 isn't enough deer rifle is like saying a 22 isn't enough rabbit gun. My policy is if there is no snow on the ground break them down where they stand shoulder or spine them so they do not run.
Posts: 19621 | Location: wis | Registered: 21 April 2001
No one mentioned this, but I will say that a Nosler Ballistic Tip will do a good job of an instant " downing them" better than any standard bullet I have seen. The price tag is tho, is that the bullet has to been sent at high velocity, and then when it hits the lungs they can explode like a gernade inside. This can cause a lot of meat damage on the off shoulder areas.
I have used a 444 Marlin and with a 300 XTP hollow point or a regular factory load with a 240 FP seems to drop them in their tracks. Biggest deer I ever killed was 300 plus pounds on the hoof. ( Field cleaned at about 275 lbs) This was in Northern Minnesota. The deer was hit in the lungs at about 100 yds, and went straight down, even tho he was shot while at a dead run after being chased out of a swamp on a deer drive. I was one of the guys they were driving towards, so I was stationary on top of a large blown down tree, with its roots etc in the air by about 10 feet off the ground.
A 45/70 with a 405 grain bullet also seemed to do some instant kills for a hunting buddy who had to do One Up on me when I got a 444.
One of the most over looked 30/06 load,is the factory 165gr remington core lokt. I've killed numerous deer with this load and always get great performance. The 150gr bullet that you're using is good also. Deer simply aren't that tough to anchor and 40 yard sprints are still quick kills.
Posts: 837 | Location: wyoming | Registered: 19 February 2002
B17 & RMK, You guys nailed it. The 165G bullet is the best for 06, and also Nosler B tips. I have been using that combo since 91,with great results. Before that I used Nosler 165 Partitions.
Posts: 78 | Location: In the woods of PA. | Registered: 30 September 2003
quote:Originally posted by gaboarhunter: As of this writing I am not reloading but will in future but I trust the advise of those who do!!! Last night I took a 145# doe shooting my Remmington 721 chamberd for 30-06, the shot was 120+ or - a few yards useing Hornady Custom 150 Grain BTSP Interlocks.The problem she ran about 40 yards before expiering. Can anyone suggest a better round that will stop them in their tracks?
Gaboar:
Posts: 3994 | Location: Hudsonville MI USA | Registered: 08 June 2000
quote:Originally posted by gaboarhunter: As of this writing I am not reloading but will in future but I trust the advise of those who do!!! Last night I took a 145# doe shooting my Remmington 721 chamberd for 30-06, the shot was 120+ or - a few yards useing Hornady Custom 150 Grain BTSP Interlocks.The problem she ran about 40 yards before expiering. Can anyone suggest a better round that will stop them in their tracks?
Gaboar:
There was nothing wrong with your shot or the bullet, or the 30-06. Shoot 20 or 30 more in the same spot with the same bullet and see if the "problem" persists.
Only way to "drop them in their tracks" is to brain 'em or hit the spine.
Posts: 3994 | Location: Hudsonville MI USA | Registered: 08 June 2000
There seems to be this persistant myth that a shoulder hit gaurantees an instant drop and this is simply not true. I have seen deer and antelope both run 30-50 yards after solid shoulder hits just as deer hit behind the shoulder often do. I find it hard to believe the deer shot with a Hornady 150 grain bullet in the chest didn't exit after only hitting the narrow part of the chest the heart lays in on a broadside shot. Was this a frontal hit?
Amen, to the comments here. 150 gr. bullet in 30/06 is extremely toxic on all deer...but no guarantee one won't live long enough to run a ways on you.
The first mule deer I ever saw shot ran almost 100 yards with major chunks of his heart and lungs blown out of his body.
If an animal is pumped up on adrenalin you get some strange results. Muscles are super charged and the animal may as well be on heroin. You'll get some runners now and then. But usually they can never make it over 50-100 yds with a good fatal hit.
Your best solution may be to change WHERE you hunt a bit rather than change bullet. Avoid the heavy brush. It a critter has a gasp of air left, he will go for it.
I predict the next 20 deer you shoot will go straight down. Runners are the exceptions on a good hit.
Posts: 19677 | Location: New Mexico | Registered: 23 May 2002
quote:Originally posted by rickt300: There seems to be this persistant myth that a shoulder hit gaurantees an instant drop and this is simply not true. I have seen deer and antelope both run 30-50 yards after solid shoulder hits just as deer hit behind the shoulder often do. . .
Hi Rickt300,
I don't think breaking a deer's shoulders and expecting him to drop is unreasonable or a myth. Maybe not DRT, but down. Shot through the meaty part of the "upper arm", without hitting bones, or a front leg shot, at or below brisket level, would likely allow one to run, such as with a regular heart/lung shot, but, then again, that's not really a shoulder shot.
No flame intended, but, based on my own experience and some additional observation, I really do not believe deer can run with broken shoulders. Some will require a finishing shot, particularly if hit a little high on the shoulder, but no runners. I've seem more deer go further (and some lost) on a neck shot, which is why I don't use them.
Posts: 588 | Location: Maryland | Registered: 08 April 2003
Deer will almost "ALWAYS" run after being shot, unless you hit bone and break them down!
I have noticed on "The Outdoor Channel" a lot of the outfitters are recommending that the hunter take the "HIGH SHOULDER" shot! About 6 inches down from the top of the back! This will hit both shoulder blades and take out the spine too! You won't lose over 2 pounds of meat, if that!
To top things off, the deer "WILL" be laying right where it was standing when you pulled the trigger!
Posts: 454 | Location: Russell (way upstate), NY - USA | Registered: 11 July 2003
Thanks again everyone this was a broad side shot and yes last year useing the same round with the same weapon I had five out of seven drop in their tracks and and the others take short bursts of run time. I had always been taught by my father and grand father to take the shot in the heart lung area but curiosity and lack of knowledge in ballistics and bullet expansion left me with alot of thoughts as well as doubts.
Posts: 6 | Location: dawson/georgia | Registered: 05 November 2003
The only guarentee you can make on how a deer will react is to guarentee that each will be different. I have shot a deer with a 12 guage rifled slug and blew the sternum loose. The deer's heart and lungs were hanging outside of its body and it ran 100 yards before dropping. A deer's tenacity is absolutely awesome. I find it passing strange that your bullet didn't pass thru but I don't have any experience with that weight bullet. I have killed a number using a 165gr hornady sp bullet and as I recall always got a pass thru on the shot. While a deer that is mortally wounded may run a short distance, it more often than not will be in a fairly straight line. And, if you're looking for the deer in high weeds or brush, remember your nose. Sometimes you can smell the deer before you can see it. Finally, if my deer has moved off, I always tie a handerchief or some sort of marker at the last point at which I saw the deer so I can go back and start over if need be.
Posts: 2037 | Location: frametown west virginia usa | Registered: 14 October 2001
I suppose if you have both shoulders lined up perfectly and you by luck break both of them then maybe that deer won't go anywhere. I have often seen deer, elk and antelope go a ways before going down with a broken shoulder and it looks painful to me. It also wastes meat and reduces the effect the bullet has on the interior of the deer after it has to negotiate the shoulder bone. instant drops mean spine or neck hits and about 50 percent of the time you will get them with hits behind the shoulder.
Some things you may try. Switch to 165 or some 180 RN bullets.
The last deer I shot, I held in front of the shoulder. He dropped in his tracks. This was advice by the local game and fish dept and I thought I would try it. They claimed more nerves, bones and blood veins were in that area.
Last, I sight my gun in to hit 3.3 inches high at 100yds and it then hits about 9 inches low at 300. A large nimber of animals I hit through the spine by holding in the middle of the body trying to place the bullet between the front legs. They always drop in their tracks.
Good luck!
Snapper
[ 11-07-2003, 06:17: Message edited by: Snapper ]
Posts: 767 | Location: U.S.A. | Registered: 08 March 2001
You're nuts Major, a deer can't go 200 yds after a lung hit!
When hit through the lungs, a deer has about a minute to get to where it is headed! Also, when a deer gets out of the immediate area it will normally stop, and that is where you will find it!
It doesn't matter much what you shoot the deer with, with a lung hit it won't go far! Assuming that you are using 22 cal centerfire or larger!
[ 11-07-2003, 13:29: Message edited by: Chuck White ]
Posts: 454 | Location: Russell (way upstate), NY - USA | Registered: 11 July 2003
quote:Originally posted by Chuck White: You're nuts Major, a deer can't go 200 yds after a lung hit!
When hit through the lungs, a deer has about a minute to get to where it is headed! Also, when a deer gets out of the immediate area it will normally stop, and that is where you will find it!
It doesn't matter much what you shoot the deer with, with a lung hit it won't go far! Assuming that you are using 22 cal centerfire or larger!
A deer could run over a 1/2 mile in 1 min!!!! Hell I'm 44 and can run a 1/4 mile in a min!
Posts: 3097 | Location: Louisiana | Registered: 28 November 2001
The deer I've hit in the lungs went from 75-125yds. when hit with bullets like the 165Hor. SP and 150gr.NBTs from a 308 and 708 respectively, I suppose it's possible for a deer to run 200yds. from a lung shot if the bullet just punched a small hole through the chest, but the way a Ballistic tip does the damage, that distance is stretching it a bit, anything is possible with them crazy deer I guess, Jay
Posts: 1745 | Location: WI. | Registered: 19 May 2003
Doug, With much respect to all who replied to you dilemma, including myself, I think it boils down to one simple idea. In you situation where cover is thick and chances of losing a mortally wounded animal, or even a grazed one, are high, think about this: IF YOU HAVE THE SLIGHTEST FEELING THAT YOU MAY LOSE THE ANIMAL BECAUSE YOU DON'T FEEL YOU CAN PUT THE ANIMAL DOWN OR MAY LOSE IT BECAUSE OF COVER, FAILING LIGHT, ETC., DON'T TAKE THE SHOT. This is my opinion, but many take this idea as gospel. I think any ethical hunter should think about this concept though, regardless of the caliber of his gun or what his buddies say is right. Regards, WYO
Nothing short of a 106mm recoilless rifle will GUARANTEE dropping a whitetail deer in its' tracks!! Sometimes they drop right there, sometimes they run off, as much as a few hundred yards!
quote:Originally posted by seafire/ B17G: [QB]No one mentioned this, but I will say that a Nosler Ballistic Tip will do a good job of an instant " downing them" better than any standard bullet I have seen. The price tag is tho, is that the bullet has to been sent at high velocity, and then when it hits the lungs they can explode like a gernade inside. This can cause a lot of meat damage on the off shoulder areas.
[QUOTE]
I second this opinion. The .30-06 is at its best with this bullet, particularily the 165's. Everything about this combination in the '06 is right, design, velocity window, and S.D.
We just filled our "B" tags the other day, and once again the '06 did, the .300Win. kind of did. I'll explain: the '06 with a 165 BT had complete penetration breaking one rib while entering, and two on the exit; on the other hand, the .300 failed to exit while using the HPBT Game King of the same weight. It was intresting to note, internal damage on both animals was similar except for the exit wound. Granted they are different bullets used at different velocities, the animals were almost identical in weight, both shots were about 150 yards in distance, and both went down for good at the shot. My point is, the magnums demand a premium bullet to ensure reliability. IMHO, the rules change when bullets are launched at 3000 fps and above.
Just in case one of the animals was tougher than the other, I'll report back after eating some of the salami!
Posts: 594 | Location: MT. | Registered: 05 June 2003
Anybody who says that "X" caliber drops deer EVERY time has shot few deer. I too have shot deer with 12 guage slugs at under twenty yards, putting a hole in them you can put a pop bottle into, and had them run a hundred yards. I dropped a deer with a .357 at the same range. They all react differently. That load you used is just fine.
Posts: 345 | Location: Michigan | Registered: 09 February 2003
I have been thinking about the request for way to drop a deer in it's tracks. Of all the ones that I have got I now recall that when it's a pretty easy shot I scan the head first with the scope to make sure I am shooting the right one and then as the cross hairs come down the neck I let it go right at the base of the neck/shoulder junction. The reason for this is so as not to waste anymore time wandering the sights all over the animal looking for the perfect angle.
Everyone of the deer that I have hit this way, with a lot of different loads, have dropped in their tracks and stopped breathing.
Don't shoot at a deers neck. They move the head and neck too fast. This shot is on the upper body and the neck lines it up.
Now that I have thought of it I think I will pop the next easy shot like that.
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