Grrrrrrr.....

SO--I have this once fired .223 brass with between .001 and .002 runout at the neck. Every die/press/expander ball combo I've tried is introducing runout. I also tried once fired brass from another rifle, same results...

Forester Co-Ax press
Older heavy duty Pacific 'O' press
Redding Bushing die, regular expander, carbide floating button, no expander, etc.
RCBS neck die, with expander, without, etc.

It's driving me frickin' crazy. two different presses, two different types of neck die...

Today I ordered Lee Collet dies....

My limited experience with the concentricity gauge shows that once the brass has been violated with the expander ball, no amount of firing and partial neck sizing can get the loaded ammo readings all they way back to the .0015" average runout at the ogive with both bearing surfaces on the body.

Once the brass has seen the expander ball, rehabilitation is limited to ranging from .0015" to .005.

Also, the neck thickness variation around the neck makes problems much bigger than it's variation.

I get my best ammo concentricity by finding a great batch of brass and then baby it along with 1/2 ~ 3/4 neck sizing. The seater die must be the moving sleeve type. The neck must be chamfered inside and out so that there is no burr anywhere.

[ 03-24-2003, 04:58: Message edited by: Clark ]

The most vexing is the runout being induced by the bushing die with the expander completely removed, using the Co-Ax press.

After re-reading all the other 'runout' threads, I'm wondering about the case head being out of square, causing it to enter the bushing cocked to one side....

rogerinneb,
I too am waiting on the Lee collet die for 35 Whelen. I have been chasing this 'runout gremlin' ever since I got that damn RCBS Case Master!

Could it be that your chamber is cocka?

I read a lot about nonconcentric chambers.

Just a thought.

I just came back from the range, with a lot of perfect diamond shaped groups.

Ever notice that there are no, none, nada, zero, bullet holes in the center of the pattern?

Maybe we need an eccentricity gauge.

cheers.

roger, I beleive one of those threads may have been mine, and here is what I found so far;

I pulled the decapping rod up into the die so far as to just barely push the primer out. I also adjusted the sleeve so that only 50%-60% of the neck is being sized (no expander). That along with imperial die wax has helped me to get some good numbers, however, there are always those cases that go in with little run-out, but come out with .002". I can't explain those, but often, the match kings will pull them back to .0015". I have spent 3 entire weekends at the bench now, and that's the best i can get out of the redding neck (bushing) dies I have. I am using a Rock chucker, so you should get smaller run-out than I am (I think). HTH

Well, last night I went back at it and removed/cleaned/re-installed the self-adjusting shell-holder rig on the Co-Ax, cleaned and re-assembled the neck bushing die and went at it again.

I would say my results are a little better--most cases having the same runout coming out of the bushing die (no expander installed) as going in...but, as JustC noted, the occasional case going from .001 to .002...

I was also careful not to push the case head HARD against the rear indexing stop (I'm using the Sinclair runout jig). so as to minimize the horizontal "wobble" that might be introduced by an uneven case head.

Interestingly, after loading the rounds (75 grain A-max's, seated pretty darn far out, which would look like recipe for big runout...) the runout was generally less than what was measured on the case neck...again, not unlike what JustC noted.

I'm with the rest of you who rue the day you got that darn dial indicator! Ignorance was bliss!

Try marking the cases that show run out and see if they come back after the next sizeing. If they do you can set them aside for "fouling rounds" The problem is most likely with the walls of the cases being thicker on some of your cases. I`ve seen walls as much as .003 / .005 thicker on one side - bad brass for sure- and with out turning they never come out straight. Then again I think some cases just don`t like me and always show a bit of run out just out of spite.

Ah, the good ol RCBS Casemaster. Sometimes I wish I did not own one of them. But I do, I use it and I believe it is a useful tool. Seems like I shoot better. Or is it I am shooting better stuff.

If you can't stand the pain, don't play the game.

I too have been plagued with runnout problems. I ordered a custom set of collet dies from Lee to try and solve the problem for my 7mm Ultra Mag. If you send Lee two fired cases and two sample bullets they will make you a set of custom dies. The cost is $50.00 but a friend says they cured his accuracy problems with a 7mm STW. I haven't gotten the dies yet but when I do we will see.

You guys are gonna think I'm a Hornady rep but...I have hornady dies in .223, .308 & .270 wby that absolutely will astound you with virtual "0" runnout. YES, I fiddled with the sizing stem resetting it a few times till I hit "paydirt" but these dies will make ammo as GOOD as my forester bench rest dies.
PS--I found that lee shellholder (now you're really gonna think I'm nuts) seemed to help runnout over and above my rcbs but I cannot explain why.

Before you become the dog chasing his tail ask yourself "Does it matter?" I tested lots of 600 yard ammo in a match grade service rifle off a bench in early morning to avoid any wind in an attempt to find out how segregating ammo for runout worked. After shooting groups with the ammo that had been tested on a sinclair tool for less than 2 thous runout we shot the culls and came up with the 2 best groups of the test. Bottom line: it don't mean much,especially in a hunting rifle instead of a target gun.
Seriously run the test yourself and see if you can tell the difference.

Kevin,

I agree. I'm going to take a batch of those damn bananna .006'ers and shoot some groups next to my precious .001'ers. I'm thinking 3 five shot groups of each at least 200 yds....I'll use my Cooper VE21, which is boringly relaible half moa gun.

Now I just have to find the time...

I just got my Lee Collet die for my 35 Whelen yesterday and ran some cases through it last night. Looks VERY promising! All the fired cases that I sized with it came out with less than .002" and most were right at .001" or less! Now we will see if it makes a difference on the range.

Roger,

"Blind bag" those cartridges, so that you won't know which group is which. This will remove the human tendency to "persuade expectations."

I belive that you will see a definite difference at 100 yards with the .223. I hope you will shoot the test and let us know soon.

But do blind bag the cartridges, and simply fold a note and put it in each ziploc bag stating "good" or "bad." Mix the bags up, or better yet, have someone else mix them.

Contrary to what was reported by one NRA test done decades ago, I've seen the effects of runout diminish as range increases. In my experience, if you're going to see the effects of runout, you'll see them much more at 100 yards than at longer ranges. (If you'd like to be really industrious, you could shoot a test at 300 yards in addition to a 100 yard test, again with blind bagged ammo).

If you do this, let us know what you discover...

Dan

Update.

No major scientific tests, because I culled a bunch of cases and had nothing over .003 in the three five round groups I shot today, but at least I have a baseline. I was seeing how 75gr. Amax's would shoot out of my newly acquired uesed savage 10fp.

22gr. of H335 printed a .6" group. I'll use this load as the beginning of baseline for the blind test. I guess I have to fish all those .006ers out of the trash?

Also, just to make sure I hadn't gone completely insane, I worked some 22-250 brass tonight. Had some twice fired Win. cases that all showed .001 or less runout. Using my Forster neck die with the expander removed. they all came out same as they went in...Phew...

Yes Runout Does suck..

I have grown a few grey hairs myself, trying to get rid of it.
Green 788, Kraky and a lot of other guys here in the forum has done theirs to help me out.Thanks guys.
I use forster bench rest dies.
Here�s is what I have done. : I found that my cases came out concentric with the exp. button out, so far so good, then it is not the die body or the press.
But most likely the expander pin or button or both.
I checked the pin for strightness, polished the button, freefloated the case holder and tried again.
What worked was an adjustment in height of the button, plus I have used several O-rings under the nut on top of the die, to let the pin be as loose as possible.
But like Kevin NY says does it all really matter�? I have not found much difference on the target, myself. In a standard chamber I do not think it matters much.
BUT what about all the sizing of the neck. That makes the neck stiffer and thus more reluctant to let the bullet go. isn�t it more important to pay attention to uniformity in this. I mean keep close attention to how much ones brass is sized.
i suppose we all keep count on haw much it has been fired, but sized.. I for one, have sized the same case a couple of times to adjust or check the dies and then let that case back with the others.
Any ideas anyone??

Has ANYBODY figured out yet that if the necks aren't the same thickness all the way around you're measuring how much they aren't instead of run-out?

A concentricity guage is pretty much useless unless the neck is concentric first.

JBelk.....so what you are saying now is that I have to get a neck turner??? Geeezzzzz Does it ever end????

It does end... With a standard chamber there is no need to neck turn. I even think you can still find some test results on this, here in the forum. The test showed that neckturning worked against our aim. "precision". That is,
In a standard chamber.
But yes of course, most of us, have figured out that difference in neck wall thickness shows on the runout gage.

JBelk,

Yessir I've come to this concusion as well. I've been bidding on anvil mics. over on Ebay, and I may try the Sinclair tool that uses an RCBS pilot and a dial indicator, which I already have. It's only $25 without the dial, a bargain compared to a high quality anvil/tubing mic, but not as precise I suppose, but adequate for the question at hand...