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I have about 1000 144 gn FMJ .308 projectiles in my cupboard that I used to use for target shooting but no longer use. They are fmj exept for the base, which has the lead exposed. Is it possible to load these in backwards and have a large hollow point with a super sleek boat tail? If it is possible they would make a cheap killer projectile for pigs etc. I have a image of these projectiles here but don't know how to attach it to this post. Any one tried this before? Most shots are taken @ 150m max so I am not chasing pinpoint accuracy. Regards, Al. | ||
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Well, it can certainly be done. As long as you worked up your load, I can't see any reason that it would be unsafe. The B/C of the bullets wouldn't be spectacular, but then you already know that. Terminal performance might be erratic. If they are decent bullets, perhaps you could sell them off.... | |||
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Thanks JB, They are ex - mil projectiles, some of the the cannelure's are in different positions and the weights are very erratic and seeing I have had them for a while they are also blemished. Might as well try and blast them away. A mate of mine has an old spanish mauser in .308 that I sold him years ago, sits in the cupboard unused, might be just the ticket to run a few loads through! Al. | |||
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For generations now shooters have been knocking the points off Mil projectiles. In particular, I've had great success with a 6.5 Swed. I just pushed the loaded rounds onto a sanding disk until they looked like a flat point 30-30 bullet. Accuracy seemed improved if anything, even though everything was just done by sight/guess. One still famous gunmag writer reckons he tried taking them back to a complete cyl. and never had the core blow out. (.303 I think.) A mate of mine has loaded proj. back to front OK but I don't know what load or accuracy he had. Will ask him next time I see him. The idea gives me the willies, thinking of major gas cutting around the "boattail". My mate says no problem, but he's a bit weird! | |||
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Shooting them backwards just for kicks or to get rid of them is one thing, but to "hunt" something with them is another story. They obviously weren't designed to be used that way, the jacket is not designed to expand from that end, you'll just have a bunch of inconsistencies. Some bullets may expand (sorta), others may just punch straight through as if they were still FMJs, others may disintegrate, etc. In other words, I just wouldn't shoot anything alive with them. Nothing deserves that sort of uncertain performance. | |||
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quote:Hey JAL, If you could possibly go visit a Bullet Manufacturing facility, you would immediately understand why this is a bad idea. The Lead Core is inserted into a partially formed Jacket that still has Forming Lube both inside and outside. You do get a "mechanical bond" during the final forming and when the cannelure is added, but the Lube(in varying amounts) is still inbetween the jacket and core. I'm real glad you did not have a problem doing it with your bullets, but the Core will eventually be blown out of the jacket if you shoot enough of them. This was documented well before I was born by the NRA. I think of it similar to dressing in solid black, putting on ear-muffs and a blindfold, then walking across a rural road at 5AM. You can get by with it perhaps for a long time, or maybe the first trip will result in something unpleasant. If you do continue to shoot the Nose-removed FMJs, let me encourage you to check your throat carefully after each shot. --- Hey als, I tried shooting some FMJs backwards through a rifle about 30 years ago and didn't have very good accuracy with them at 25yds. I don't remember the exact "pattern size", but they all hit an 8.5"x11" target in maybe 4". Now that I understand a bit more about what was going on, I believe the problem is the long nose becoming the Base is influenced a bit more by the swirling gas during exit at the muzzle. And of course all the other variations you previously mentioned. But, your rifle might just shoot them fine - backwards. Only way to know is to try a few and see. | |||
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I've shot 115 grain M1 Carbine bullets backwards. I had a clean target at 100 yards, very few hits at 50, and had to bring it back to 20 yards to see my ~8" group. I didn't see any keyholes. These rounds didn't feed to well either. H. C. | |||
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I think it was a Capstick story where someone reversed a .270 bullet and killed an elephant with it in an emergency. In spite of that I doubt the practice is to be generally recommended. | |||
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I loaded the 30-06 ball round backwards for a friend. Keep in mind that this guy was really cheap. At that time we were getting the ammo free from the DCM in the big steel cans. He had a Remington 760 and we went to the Blue trail range and I set him up on the 200 yd range which has no closer targets. I was quite sure that the 760 would not shoot well with any ammo not being familar with them. The result was excellent accuracy and he was on target as well! The "V" ring is 4" on that target and he was around that. I don't think he shot anything with that ammo. As Hot Core said the NRA warned against shooting FMJ bullets with cut tips. Join the NRA | |||
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 I have reversed a lot of military bullets, experimenting ,mostly .308 7.62x51.The best accuracy I got was about 2" at 50 yds.Never intended to try it out on game so I can't speak from experience in that respect. Never ran into any tumbling or pressure problems that were obvious. rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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Although you might get acceptable "plinking" acuracy, there will likely be some degrading from the accuarcy of the same bullets loaded point forward, whatever that is in your rifle. Why less accuracy? Well...perfect barrel crowns and good "square" bullet bases are both important for accuracy. Flat bullet bases are RELATIVELY easy to keep square. Boattail bases are a bit more difficult, as the surface area of the base is longer and there are a couple of corners where, in a flat base, there is just one. Bullet noses, however, are where "allowable" variation in dimension occurs in making jacketed bullets. If bullet seating depth is set with a collimator, to get the most consistent "stand-off" of the bullet nose from the rifling, OAL (over all length) of the loaded round will still be all over the place...often varying as much as .007" or even more. That suggests that gas pressure application (vectors) on the "base" (used to be the nose) of the bullet as it leaves the bore MAY also vary significantly. Or maybe not, too! Anyway, if accuracy DOES degrade, don't be too surprised. My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
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quote:Hey JAL, If you could possibly go visit a Bullet Manufacturing facility, you would immediately understand why this is a bad idea. The Lead Core is inserted into a partially formed Jacket that still has _Forming Lube_ both inside and outside. You do get a "mechanical bond" during the final forming and when the cannelure is added, but the Lube(in varying amounts) is still inbetween the jacket and core. QUOTE] Um,sure. But, life is full of chances, and if one feller couldn't get the core to blow out, well, I was only cutting the tip off, and only a few for hunting.(I don't do all that much.) And fwiw, when I tried to do the right thing when I started to reload for handguns, by going to the gunshop putting myself in their capable hands, got a manual which we looked at, some components etc. loaded up a .38 special load for a 357, and proceeded in stages to dismantal the S.A. revolver. Turns out shots 3 to 6 were leaving the skirt in the barrel, and creating little bulges everywhere. The blighters gave me target lead bullets instead of jacketed. Still, at least I don't shoot Sako's or Tika's. :-) John L. | |||
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My mad mate assures me he has fired reversed Mil proj. at "normal" full loads. Noting Hot Core's advice, I'd still prefer my tip doctoring as probably safer than annoying pigs while on foot. ( I KNOW their out to get me.) :-0 JL. | |||
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quote: Well maybe, but have you seen what our Dingoes do to sheep and calves, for the fun of it, leaving most of them alive, sort of. Yer tend to pop them with anything handy. When I told this grazier I felt sorry for the second last dog I shot, he said "don't be." JL | |||
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A scientific test? Hot Core got me worried and wondering so I got in my Lab. (garage), got a FMJ ADI 308 Boat-tail,and chopped the whole front off, back to a cylinder. Then fixed this bullet and pounded on the back with a flat end punch. Much pounding later I eventually got the lead core out. Now all i'm wondering is - what pressure equalevent did I reach with the old ball pain hammer?? John L. | |||
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JAL, I remember whilst reloading handgun target rounds for 38 special, I accidently placed a 138 gn Hollow Base Wad Cutter in backwards, looked like the meanest hollow point round you have ever seen. Never fired it though, pulled the bullet instead. Al. | |||
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quote: Yes I've shot some like that with a light load they're probably not much use for anything though. JL. | |||
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quote:Hey JAL, Good for you on the "worry". Much prefer your being concerned about what could happen to actually experiencing it. I believe the SAAMI Approved Standard for measuring the Pressure generated by a ball "pain" hammer is to use your Thumb as the Pressure Detection device.  But, as long as you make sure the Bore dosen't have a Jacket stuck in it prior to firing the next one, you will be fine. It might be a bit tricky to remove a "swaged-in" Jacket from the Forcing Cone-Lead area, but that is better than letting it pull a "Sako" on you. --- quote:Count me in that group as well. And the way their management is responding to the blow-ups, I don't see that I'll ever be one of their customers. | |||
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Hey JAL, I just happened to be flipping through PO Ackley's Volume II today and on pages 24-26 he discusses this issue. He was not able to get the core to slip on a FMJ with it cut so short that it was basically a Jacket Cylinder with Lead in it. He did lodge one in a barrel, melted the Lead out and fired a Bullet into it. The original "Stuck Jacket" remained in place and caused a slight barrel swell directly above it. Then he went on to mention how some barrels had been blown-open when a Core slipped out of the old style Bullet designs where they had a "very small hole" in the Base. I've not seen any of them in years, but they used to be quite common. --- PO Ackley was indeeda great firearms experimenter. In this situation, even though he did not duplicate core slippage, I do believe he would recommend being alert to the "possibility". --- Hey als, I also happend on to a Report by Col. Frank Chamberlin who did an exhaustive study on live animals. He mentioned trying some reversed 150gr FMJ Bullets in the 30-06: quote:And he shot thousands of live animals during these tests. | |||
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quote: It is usually futile to try to talk facts and analysis to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance | |||
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35 or 40 years ago, loading hollow base wadcutters backward and pushing them for all they were worth was considered a good personal protection load for the Chief's Special and other 2 inch revolvers in 38 Spcl. I think that was not so much that they would open up, but that the edges would cut on penetration and penetration would be low enough to stay in the body. That said, I would never fire a bullet with lead showing at both ends in a high pressure load! Put your nose to the grindstone, your belly to the ground, and your shoulder to the wheel. Now try to work in that position! | |||
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Paco Kelly wrote about reversing HBWCs and filling the cup with grease. He shot them through a .357 on deer in Virginia, even killed a bear with one! Al.[/QUOTE] OK, I give up. What was the grease for? | |||
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The grease thing had me baffled also. AL | |||
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So they wouldn't get stuck, of course.  "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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Drat. I was thinking increased penatration. | |||
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quote:The grease is intended to force the Hollow Base to open easier because it is "less compressable" than "air" in a non-grease-filled Hollow Base. | |||
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Hot Core. Bloody hell. You'll have to take me slower than that. I read somewhere a blocked up hollow point may not expand at all. The stupid reversed hollow base must be the ultimate HP. Can't see it needing any help to expand, but I would expect it to expand back to the bullet with vertually no real effect. Like an expanding banana peel? Anyway I think the whole idea should remain in the joke mode; it was more fun. | |||
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I tried inverted projectiles in .223 and .38spl. In the .223 I used a Remington "22 caliber 55MC" bullet, and the lightest powder charge in my reloading manual. (to corect for decreased internal cartridge volume, in order to make sure peak pressure wouldn't rise too high) I fired it into a couple of milk cartons filled with water. Distance was about 2 yards, and I got soaked (that'll teach me). After inspecting the cartons I found that the bullet had completely desintegrated. I fired a couple of these rounds at the range, and got an accuracy of about 1 inch at 50 yards. Not too bad for a non-doctored up load. In the .38 I used a 148grs Berry's copper-plated HBWC. I used an average powdercharge, but seated the bullet less deep in the case (reason see above). I fired it into a block of clay, at about half a yard. The cavity was impressive: 5" wide and 6" deep. The bullet had expanded to the point that the skirt had been completely ripped off. (These Berry's bullets are made of a very hard, and apparently kinda brittle alloy. The solid cylindrical part of the bullet had stayed intact, but the skirt had been ripped into pieces. Impressive performance though.. "A man's gotta know his limitations" | |||
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quote:That is one reason why people quite carrying them reversed, they do not always seem to open irregardless of what you do. Kind of like the arguments you see on people using the Sierra MatchKings, occasionally they just don't open. quote:As in Max's post, depending on the Alloy, if that portion breaks off, you are now actually back to where you would be with it Seated properly - a somewhat flat point, but with less weight (less weight is bad in most Revolver/Pistol applications). quote:Too late to bring it up!!! By the way, you do not have to hit "Enter" when you get near the edge on your entries, unless you want a new paragraph. This Board has "Word Wrap" which allows it to readjust the sentences once you go down and click on "Post Now". Oh yes, never carry a Reversed HBWC for personal protection. In fact, don't carry any Reload for personal protection. The Lawyers will try to have a jury believing you intentionally developed some Super-Duper Man Killer Load rather than the "safer" Factory Loads. That same logic is what caused Winchester to redesign their excellent Black Talon ammunition a few years ago. Pressure put on by the DEMOCRATS to have a "safer" bullet. Pitiful! But, the good news is the new Winchester Ammo is at least as-good-as the old Black Talons, and maybe even better. Winchester has just changed their marketing tone. | |||
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To Hot Core. Thanks, I need all the advice I can get re posting. ( On another Board I'm begging people to tell me how to guote.) And some posts on some Boards go Way over > and I get confused as to where I am most times. But in a lot of cases here it's not my enters that stuff up, as my self editing, usually to make my guff more understandable. This little window is no PC Write. (now I'm showing my age.) | |||
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