Background - I want to use a 180NP as my deer and elk bullet - "one load for everything". I have tried two powders (4350 and 4831), each with 3 different weight charges. 57gr of IMR 4350 was the best. My problem came this AM when I grabbed some 4 year old 180gr factory core-lokts out of the closet. I fired Four 5 shot groups, each better than any of the handloaded groups. I would appreciate some suggestions as to different powders (and the respective grain weight) I should try. I am very careful about weighing each charge, seating depth, etc., and cannot understand why I can't get better groups with the NPs. HELP!!!!!

Well, first off, you did not state what group sizes you were getting regarding the handload vs factory. I just could be your rifle just doesn't like Nosler partitions, but if the load seem OK otherwise, you might try playing with the seating depth.
FWIW, my all round load for the 30-06 involves two bullets. This has worked in several rifles chambered to the 30-06 and three rifles in .300 Win. Mag.
First, I work up a load with the 180 gr. Sierra Pro-hunter for deer. I then drop back two gr. of powder and work back up to the same load with the Nosler Partition. Both his so close to POA that I can't tell which hole came from which bullet. That's a six shot group with three Sierras and three Noslers mixed up. I load very hot loads for the 06 so I won't pass the load along, but the Powder is W-760 with a Winchester WLR primer and Winchester brass. Both bullets are seated out as far as the magazine and rifle throat allow. Both loads shoot into one inch when I do my part, and when I intermix the loads, groups enlarge to 1.25" tops, again when I do my part. Those loads are certainly more than accurate enough for any deer or elk and any reasonable range and probably beyond.
JMHO, but one does not need .5" groups for big game.
Paul B.

quote:

but the Powder is W-760

Same as H-414 and it's what I settled on as well.

RL22 is also a fine choice for the 30-06.

Accuracy may be the result of barrel touching the stock as well. Is the barrel free floated?

Not all guns like NPs - even though they are usually pretty accurate.

It is always difficult to diagnose accuracy or reloading problems long range... But here are a few things you could try:
- try some 180 grs AccuBond bullets. In a .30-06 they perform as well as Partitions, and they are usually very accurate.
- while you are at it, also try out a box of 180 grs Hornady InterBonds and Barnes 165 (or 168 grs) TSX.
- Try to reload some Remington 180 grs CoreLokts. Do they shoot as well as your factory stuff??
- how do you size your cases? How do you prepare your cases before reloading them??
- how does seating bullets feel, does it feel like all bullets seat with about the same amount of force??

If all else fails, you can easily use the 180 grs CoreLokt factory loads as your all-around load. But don't worry, we are not quite that far along the track of diagnosis. Still a few things to try out and explore before we give up reloading and settle on factory ammo, but at least the option is viable...

- mike

My default load for my 06s is the Federal Premium 180 gr Nosler Partition. I handload 180 gr CoreLokts over IMR4350 for full power practice. I've played with other powders but none have worked better.

My shoot anything the '06 was supposed to shoot load is Relaoder 19 with a 168 Barnes TSX at 2940 fps.

If I am pushing the '06 to its limits, I like 200 grain NP with IMR 4831 to 2690 fps.

I've never had great luck with NP's as far as tight groups in my particular rifles - mediocre but not terrible. My guess is your rifle just may not "like" that bullet.

I've also heard rave reviews ref the Barnes 168gr TSX - spectacular accuracy and performance in the '06.

First. thanks for the responses thus far.

I ordered some RL22 today, and will try that in the coming days. Can anyone suggest a particular charge that was accurate in their 06?

Regarding seating depth, I initially seat the bullet to the point where it contacts the lands, then reset the die a quarter turn then seat the bullet for the final time. The factory corelokts are seated further in than my handloads. I always thought one wanted the bullet 5 to 10,000 from the lands for optimum accuracy.

All my cases are once fired, then I full-length resize em' and go from there.

Thanks men.

I had a 30-06 Sauer Lighweight that I had a real hard time finding a load for. Tried everything from 150 gr to 200 gr bullets and powders from IMR4350 to RL22. The only load it would shoot consistently under an inch was a 200 gr Accubond with 59.5 gr RL22 for 2650 fps. This load would not work with the 200 gr TSX. The BC is so high on the 200 gr AB that it carries a lot of energy even though it is not fast. The ballistics match the TDS reticle or the Burris Ballistic Plex very close.

A new Beretta Mato in 30-06 is liking the load also.

quote:

Originally posted by LBGuy:
First. thanks for the responses thus far.

I ordered some RL22 today, and will try that in the coming days. Can anyone suggest a particular charge that was accurate in their 06?

Regarding seating depth, I initially seat the bullet to the point where it contacts the lands, then reset the die a quarter turn then seat the bullet for the final time. The factory corelokts are seated further in than my handloads. I always thought one wanted the bullet 5 to 10,000 from the lands for optimum accuracy.

All my cases are once fired, then I full-length resize em' and go from there.

Thanks men.

You can not expect to find accuracy with load suggestions from other reloaders. Work up from below, and look for signs of accuracy in your gun.

Likewise, there is no such thing as an "optimum" seating depth. Well, perhaps you often find better accuracy seating on or into the lands - at least that is very common in BR. For hunting, however, this technique is not very practical - you risk dumping powder all over and have a bullet stuck in the barrel when you extract a loaded round. So it is a good idea to load off the lands, as you have done. However, there is no guarantee you'll find the best accuracy seating at a particular distance from the lands. Choose a starting point - .010 or .020" off the lands, say - work up to find the best charge for the bullet/powder combination in question. Now load a sequence of test loads with that load, varying your OACL in steps of maybe .005". Shoot the shorter cartridges first. If you notice accuracy getting worse as you move to the longer cartidges, you can always reseat to shorter lengths.

When you prepare your brass for reloading, after you have FL sized, make sure you clean your primer pockets, make sure your brass length does not vary too much (ideal: trim all to same length), and make sure you put a good chamfer on the indside of the case mouth before you seat bullets.

- mike

Before we obsess with bullet jump, I have never found adjusting the jump would make a good load out of a bad one. It may improve an already good load SLIGHTLY but it is the last thing I do when I am trying to maximize the accuracy of a load.

I have used 55grs of IMR 4350 with 180 SST and got sub 1" groups and backed of to 52grs for my wife with 180gr round noses.

I like mho's idea. In my opinion, you will have a hard time finding a better powder than IMR 4350 for the -06. I have had good results with 4831, but have found that I can't stuff enough of it in to equal the work done by 4350, and besides, 4350 is at its best with 165s and 180s in the 30-06.

I'm gonna try some more loads with 4350, as well as 4-5 with RL22. Since the factory 180 corelokts do MOA, if I can't at least get that with reloads of the powders just mentioned, I'll try another bullet, either the accubond or TBBCs. Thanks men.

My -06 'do-it-all' load is a 168gr TSX and RL19 powder. Best speed and accuracy of the powders I tried (h4895, imr4350, RL22, h4831).

This combo just flat hammers elk.

quote:

Before we obsess with bullet jump, I have never found adjusting the jump would make a good load out of a bad one. It may improve an already good load SLIGHTLY but it is the last thing I do when I am trying to maximize the accuracy of a load.

I agree 100% with the above statement.

What kind of groups are you getting? vertical, horizontal, two close then a flyer? I would also try different primers. I have found that a different primer can make a big difference. I haven't figured out any trends yet as when to use what brand primer.

If you are not getting the accuracy from the NP's I highly recommend TSX's. You will not be disappointed with accuracy or performance on game.

I have had generally good accuracy from NP's, but some guns are touchy. I haven't found a gun yet that won't shoot the TSX's. Now the TLC's and old standard X-bullets gave me fits.

I am betting you will see a substantial differance with some of the convential bullets like a good Serria or Hornady interlock. I have never been able to get very impressive accuracy with Nosler part. bullets in dozens of different rifles. For establishing a good accuracy benchmark for your rifle, try some A-max in 168 or 178 and you can compare your different game bullets from there. Just my experience.

Here's a pretty good deal going on at Midway....if they shoot good you probably can't reload for this price!!

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=140195

Thanks for the responses. The rifle I'm trying to find a load for is a Rem 700 stainless, in an HS Precision stock. Barrel is free floated as well. Early next weak I'm gonna shoot 7-8 different loads, and will go from there. I really appreciate the knowledge available on this site. Thanks again.

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
The BC is so high on the 200 gr AB that it carries a lot of energy even though it is not fast.

woods,
Please explain how BC effects energy.
I don't understand.

quote:

Originally posted by LBGuy:
I'm gonna try some more loads with 4350, as well as 4-5 with RL22. Since the factory 180 corelokts do MOA, if I can't at least get that with reloads of the powders just mentioned, I'll try another bullet, either the accubond or TBBCs. Thanks men.

Ah, I hate to ask, but if the 180 corelokts shoot so good why not use them in your reloads? They have killed a whole lot of game for lot of years.

quote:

Originally posted by BigBores:

woods,
Please explain how BC effects energy.
I don't understand.

High ballistic coefficients help maintain velocity at longer ranges. For example that 200 gr Accubond has a BC of .588 and carries 2208 ft lbs at 300 yards while the 200 gr Nosler Partition with a BC of .481 has 2038 ft lbs at 300 yards.

Another example is a 180 gr Fail Safe with a MV of 2800 fps and has a low BC of .391 has 1870 ft lbs at 300 yds, a 180 gr Barnes Triple Shock with a BC of .552 with the same MV has 2187 ft lbs at 300 yards.

All theoretical, but you have to make value judgements based on something.

Well, today I put together 10 different loads for testing. 3 of RL22 (59gr, 60, and 61), 4 with IMR 4350, and 4 with IMR 4381. I scale-weighed each load of powder, cleaned the primer pockets, full-length resized all cases, and seated all bullets 5Ks from the lands. If these don't shoot MOA or better, I'm changing bullets and starting all over again. After doing some more reading today, perhaps the 168gr TSX or the 180 Interbond.

510wells - regarding why I don't just use the corelokts - last Nov I shot an elk quartering to me with a 180NP out of a different 30-06. Bullet went in just in front of the left shoulder and came out just in front of the right hip. Elk went maybe 5 yards. I am just not confident that the great old corelokt would have given me that much penetration. I may be wrong though.

Thanks again for the great advice.

quote:

Originally posted by LBGuy:
Background - I want to use a 180NP as my deer and elk bullet - "one load for everything". I have tried two powders (4350 and 4831), each with 3 different weight charges. 57gr of IMR 4350 was the best. My problem came this AM when I grabbed some 4 year old 180gr factory core-lokts out of the closet. I fired Four 5 shot groups, each better than any of the handloaded groups. I would appreciate some suggestions as to different powders (and the respective grain weight) I should try. I am very careful about weighing each charge, seating depth, etc., and cannot understand why I can't get better groups with the NPs. HELP!!!!!

I don't grow weary of saying this:

How a specific bullet groups is of less importance than what it does when it arrives
at it's intended destination.

I'd trust the terminal performance of a Nosler partition over the terminal performance of almost any other bullet.

That being said I've had a 30-06 that simply could not shoot a 180grain partition with ANY propellant worth a damn.
1.75" and up at 100yards and yes, I tried everything available at the time.

That same rifle also wouldn't shoot any 165gr bullet I wanted to shoot into less than an 1.25"

However with 150gr bullets it would shoot almost anything I fed it into 3/4" or less

The Nosler ballistic tips in particular would
consistantly shoot 5/8" or less

A friend has that rifle now and he only loads 150gr Nosler ballistic tip in it over a charge of IMR4064 that's 2gr over book max.
Infact he bought TWO five box "sleeves" of 150gr BT's back when they still came 100 to a box and loaded them ALL in virgin winchester
cases, with a generous dab of "primer seal"
on the base of the bullet then into metal 30cal ammo cans... (an entire 8lb keg of 4064 into one batch of ammunition

FWIW it was a "Ted Williams model 73"
(Aka pushfeed Winchester M70)

It'll take him 20years to use up that ammo at the rate he uses it.... and when the ammo is gone the rifle will be scrap (it's on it's third stock now...)

Anyway back to the subject try another propellant, with 180's I'd recommend RL22 or AA3100 or switch to a 165gr bullet....

I think it was Jack O'Connor who said:
"If you can't find some 165gr bullet that'll shoot well in a 30-06 with 48grains of IMR4064 don't take it to a gunsmith, call an exorcist."

AllanD

Allen - The O'Connor comment had me laughing. Thanks.

IMR 4350 @ 56.0 with 180 Sierra BT
IMR 4350 @ 57.5 with 165 Sierra BT

Fed 210 Match Primer
Win Cases

I've loaded some IMR4350 - 56gs,56.5, and 57 with the 180NPs that I'll try as soon as weather permits. Thanks

LBGUY I don't know if you have your mind made up on your powder yet. but Rloader #19 worked well for me.60grs. and 180 gr. hornady SPBT.

6.5 - Thanks for the r19 suggestion. If the r22 doesn't give me what I want for my 06 or 270, I'll surely try the r19. As for bullets, I have been very fortunate using the NPs since 73' and think they will come around in this newest 06. However, if they don't, I'll find another bullet. Thanks again.

Well I'm very impressed you can shoot that many rounds and maintain the accuracy needed to determine load accuracy - I know I can't.

I have found that taking multiple loads to the range ends with inconclusive results - better to try a couple and give it a rest.

If you find your loads are not accurate, try shooting the accurate factory stuff again to maintain your confidence.

BigBore,

Woods' explanation regarding bc is certainly correct, though it may be simpler just to think of it this way:

the larger the bc, the more aerodynamic the bullet is.

Pointy bullets have a larger bc than round-noses because they are more aerodynamic. At 300 yards the pointy bullet is going faster than the round nose; and assuming both bullets are the same weight, the faster bullet will carry more energy.

What effect this has on game is highly debatable. For my money, the bullet which hits the right place will always do better, no matter how fast it's going.

Good luck and take care,

friar

1894 - My range is my back yard (an 80 acre field here on the farm). I shoot 5-10 rds, pet the dogs, check my emails, etc. untill I'm ready for the bench. I'm retired, so I have all day. Life is Good! Started to shoot today but the winds got up to around 7 mph, so I'll look at again tomorrow.

What brand of -06 brass do you prefer or do you you military brass?
I've used Lake City brass from Bartlett's and have been happy with it.

I use either Win or Fed, but have a couple hundred rounds of factory-loaded Lake City stuff that I got off a friend about 7 years ago. I believe it is loaded with 172gr FMJ bullets.