Hi folks,

I had a very strange day on the range yesterday with my 357 Rem Max T/C Contender pistol and I'm wondering if anyone can help.

OK, here's the situation:

I had just put a new scope on the .357 Max barrel so I decided to sight it in with some .38 Special target loads I'd cooked up using 158 grain bullets. No problem so far, after about a 20 shots I was putting 5 shots easily within a 4 inch circle.

So then I switched to some .357 Maximum loads using the same 158 grain jacketed bullets, again at 50 yards.

I coudn't even get them on the paper. After bringing in a sheet of cardboard I determined that they were shooting over a foot low!

The problem was purely verticle. They were dead on from left to right, just a foot low. So I adjusted the scope and finally I got the Max loads grouping pretty well at 50 yards.

My question is what the heck could cause this? I can understand if I had somehow screwed up the Rem Max loads so they were wildly inaccurate, but that wasn't the case. Any thougths on what could be happening, or is this always the case with guns that can chamber different length rounds as is the case with the Rem Max?

Thank you.

Grouse

The faster loads of the max exit the barrel before it has signifigantly rotated.

Handguns are notorious for signifigant verticle dispersion as bullet weight, velocities and recoil change.

A slow bullet is in the barrel longer .
As the recoil causes the muzzel to rise , the longer it takes the bullet to leave the higher the muzzel is as the bullet leaves .

At some point down range the slow bullet and the fast bullet paths cross

Hope this helps

Johnch

Ah ha! Thanks a ton guys, now we're getting somewhere.

So to follow up, would I be better off using .357 Magnum rounds for a "light" target load? I guess the only way to tell for sure is going to be to try some and see if they group more like the 357 Max, but is it more likely a Mag round will pattern more closely or is it just impossible to have the gun group consistententy with a variety of different fodder?

Grouse

quote:

Originally posted by The Famous Grouse:
...is it just impossible to have the gun group consistententy with a variety of different fodder?...

Hey Grouse, Welcome Aboard! Always good to see another Reloader join in the group.
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Actually your question can be answered in a number of ways. You could take a close look at the Trajectory Tables and see where the two different Loads "cross" in the flight path, place the Target there and "maybe" have them both land fairly close together. But the Barrel Harmonics could be enough different to create a wide Horizontal Impact difference.

However, there is a fairly simple way around the issue and you may not have to buy anything.

First off, get your main Hunting Load sighted in at whatever distance you desire. Then Zero the Adjustable Dials on the Scope to " 0 ".

Now, take your Practice Loads and sight them in at the same distance by cranking in whatever Vertical and Horizontal adjustment is needed. When you get the Practice Load sighted-in, write the Scope Settings on the Practice Load Box.

Now you can go back to the Hunting Load settings by returning to the Zero Settings. Just go two clicks past Zero and then back up those same two clicks to eliminate any adjustment lag.
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If there is not enough adjustment in the Scope for that, get the Burris Signature Rings with a set of the Eccentric Synthetic Inserts and you will be able to adjust the scope with enough range that both Loads can be dialed in.

Best of luck to you.

Good advice, guys, thanks a ton. It's back to the range next weekend to see if I can get things more dialed in.

Hot Core, I'll try your suggestion. It seems like that would be a good way to be able to use the .38 special loads. I'm a big stickler for "reality range" practice. I figure if I can hit at 50 yards standing I'm probably in ok shape.

Thanks.

Grouse

Welcome aboard Famous (and tasty too!) Grouse. The maximum is a wonderful cartridge and you may want to try 180 grain bullets like the Speer SP. That and a case of Win 296 is a fabulous deer load, and quite accurate, velocity was in the upper 1800's if memory serves me. Longer barrel though. Either way, I would stick to the maximum cases for all loads rather than having to clean out the chamber area frequently.

Thanks Sako. I don't have much experience reloading, in fact I just got started when I bought the Contender about 6 months ago.

For the Max, I bought some 158 grain JSP bullets for practice.

For hunting, I read good things about the Hornady 180 grain spire points, so I bought 100 of them. Ever used these yourself? Interested to hear what you think as I haven't shot any of them yet. I figured I'd mess around with the cheap practice bullets first.

I'm thinking of powering the 180 SPs with 4227. I seem to read about this powder a lot, and I can also use it in my .223 I believe.

Really looking forward to this deer season, though. I've wanted to hunt with a handgun since I read an article about it in Field & Stream when I was 12. I finally was able to shell out the coinage, so hopefully. . .

Grouse

quote:

Originally posted by 308Sako:
... I would stick to the maximum cases for all loads rather than having to clean out the chamber area frequently.

Hey Grouse, This is exellent advice from 308Sako. Meant to mention it before and got sidetracked by a more pressing issue.

You can actually load the Max Cases at 38Spl levels, but it will take just a bit more powder to reach the same velocity because of the internal case volume being larger.

As long as you scrub the Chamber area well though, no harm will be done to the barrel. But if you do not get the "burned on residue ring" removed, and then shoot a 357MAX, there is a good chance the case will get hung on the crud.

So, 308Sako's suggestion is a good one to avoid a hassle down the road.

Good hunting and clean 1-shot kills.

Were you using 38 spl casings. I tried this with my 357 max barrel and 357 mag casing could not hit shit. TC told me the jump to the rifling is just to long. went to the Max case and the things shoots like a house on fire.

Must of killed 20 plus deer with it 158gr rem sp ahead of a max load of H110 for 2150fps. 14 inch barrel.

I've found the max seems to dote on AA 1680 with the 180 and 200 gr bullets. It also likes to be compressed. My 10" contendor would push 200 gr cast to 1900 fps with a max load of 1680.

Famous G, I do think you will do just fine with the 4227, and the AA 1680 is a great powder as well. I simply used the Win 296 because I was loading the .44 Mag quite a bit at the time. I found that the 158 pistol JHP's were a bit too fragile on deer, but they sure did die quick! One did not make it through the on side shoulder, and it was a mature doe of about 135 lbs. The Speer or the Hornady 180's have an advantage of being ballistically a bit better suited for distance, and retained energy. You will do well.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
Were you using 38 spl casings. I tried this with my 357 max barrel and 357 mag casing could not hit shit. TC told me the jump to the rifling is just to long. went to the Max case and the things shoots like a house on fire.

Must of killed 20 plus deer with it 158gr rem sp ahead of a max load of H110 for 2150fps. 14 inch barrel.

Hi,

I was actually using .38 special cases with 158 grain Remington JSP bullets. They shot pretty well when I just sighted the gun in with them. At 50 yards, I had no problem keeping 5 rounds within a 4 inch circle. That was probably more a limit of my shooting skills than the gun.

Things all went to heck when I swiched to the Rem Max cases. Once I got it sighed back in for the Rem Max rounds, I put 6 shots in a two by two inch square at 50 yards. At 100 I was able to hit a 4 inch circle pretty consistently. I'm thinking the limitation was probably more me than the gun.

Just to follow up on Hot Core's comment, can I really just load a .38 special or maybe a .357 Mag powder charge load in a 357 Max case? Will that really work for a light target load?

Grouse

Famous, basically yes the lighter charges for practice, but use a faster burning powder as slow "for the cartridge" will not be as accurate nor as pressure safe. As an example, If a .38 special and a 148 grain hollow base wadcutter would work with 2.7 grains of bullseye, try it with 3.5 grains in a maximum case. Because volume is greater, pressures for a 2.7 grain charge in a maximum case would be lower then in the special case. Don't try too many different powders, and keep notes of the results. The more you shoot the contender, the better you will do with it. They are generally capable of excellent accuracy.