It's why water or liquid is used to determine a cases capacity at static density !. 100% Capacity !.

Simple enough for you morons who still don't accept reality !. Try putting that much powder in your cases .

Talk about your BSing !.

Shot Straight Know Your Target . ...

So now you have resorted to name-calling. How mature...

When you get done with recess, maybe you can check some references to see that LOAD DENSITY and CASE CAPACITY are not the same.

Then check aNosler manual since you have never seen load densities listed in all of your worldly experiences.

quote:

Originally posted by tnekkcc:
...don't get stuck on the Denton level

-----

Hey Dr. K, It appears you all are talking about two different things. As I looked through the posts, I find myself agreeing with "both sides" of the argument you all are trying to have.

Using "water" to determine Case Volume is not the same thing as filling a Case with Stick or Flake Powder and trying to compress it.

1. If you use Water, compressing it would definitely result in the Case changing shape and the Primer being pushed out. Water is not normally considered as compressable from the Hydraulics standpoint. It would be better to think of it as non-compressable.

So that agrees with Dr. K.

2. When a Case is filled to overflowing with Stick or Flake Powder(aka 100% full), it can be compressed with proper technique and more(a variable amount x%) added.

And that agrees with the vast majority of the folks who understand Ramrods original post.

3. Ball/Spherical Powders "might be able" to be slightly compressed, but it depends on how the Powder was put into the Case(swirling, long drop tube, vibration, light tamping). It is best not to think of Ball/Spherical Powders as compressable, because you will get Primers pushed out and Case shape changes if too much force is applied.
-----

I have a particular Cartridge that has always shot very well for a stock Hunting rifle using Hunting Bullets when powered with H450. A few years ago, Hodgdon decided to quit marketing H450 - a Spherical Powder. So, even though I've got a few pounds of H450 on the shelf, I was thinking about a replacement for it.

A look through what was available showed an abundance of Stick Powders all around the typical H450 Burn Rate. Decided to go with a slightly slower Stick Powder and see how it went. All went just fine and ran out of Case Volume before I reached the same CHE/PRE levels as seen with the H450. So, it was time for swirling, tamping and compressing.

Don't know how much above 100% overflow I was able to compress the Stick Powder, because I was focused on Pressure Indicators, not the amount of Powder. Eventually deformed the Case enough that it would not chamber, but the Loads prior to that level were still at a SAFE Pressure level. And that Load also shot quite well which meant once the H450 was used up, another option was readily available.

Time passes and I'm doing some Scope Testing for myself with inexpensive scopes that a Beginner might want to purchase. Time to stick one on that same rifle and rather than use up the H450, or do more of the compressed Loads with the Stick Powder, I thought I'd just use some Starting Loads of a totally different Stick Powder. Got them Loaded up sent a couple down range at 50yds to get on the paper and noticed the Pressure would not be any concern at all.

Backed out to 100yds, sent one down and laid the rifle aside. Shot a couple of the other rifles - once - and set them aside. Then back to the first one. Looked like I'd totally missed the Target and I had the scope on 24x. Set it aside and went through the others again. Back to the first one and another shot seemed to slightly enlarge the hole.

Well, this time that particular Load outshot anything I've ever had in that rifle, using good old Speer Hot-Cor Bullets. Even outshot my Benchmark Loads using MatchKings and B-Tips. And it is a very low Pressure Load with velocity "guesstimated" to be relatively close to the other two Loads. Don't know if it was a Fluke, Random Group Dispersion just happened to fall together, or what happened. I may or may not be able to duplicate it in the future, but it sure was nice to see.

Could just as well have been the Compressed Load that shot the best.
-----

So, what does it all mean? - "...don't get stuck on the Denton level..."

quote:

Originally posted by Dr.K:

MAXIMUM LOAD DENSITY was achieved when case was filled with water I E Case Capacity !.

Shoot Straight Know Your Target . ...

Frankly, Dr. K, I don't understand how you can find shooting enjoyable. I found, when I was using the 100% loads as you describe, that my misfire rate was rather discouraging.

I got a lot better results when I slipped my loads back to 80% of case capacity and used gunpowder instead of water.

Sorry, I could not resist. I know that an educated man appreciates good humor, so I have confidence that you will not take offense.

Just curious, what is it that you are a Doctor of?

Seriously, now, I was wondering if you had a chance to read my post on this forum (Posted 14 June 2008 10:34) wherein I asked if "55 is 110% of 50"?

Please answer. I want to understand where my thinking is going wrong.

Thanks,

Always wear eye protection, especially when working with primers and don't pinch your fingers in the press.

Lost Sheep (Larry)

quote:

Hey Dr. K, It appears you all are talking about two different things. As I looked through the posts, I find myself agreeing with "both sides" of the argument you all are trying to have.

Using "water" to determine Case Volume is not the same thing as filling a Case with Stick or Flake Powder and trying to compress it.

I believe you are right HC.
Density is the ratio of mass to volume and you can increase the mass with compression in some instances while the volume is fixed. I "believe" Nosler uses the volume in water of the case with the mass of the powder for their density figure. There was a post, as I remember, on the Nosler forum about this sometime ago.

quote:

... Well, this time that particular Load outshot anything I've ever had in that rifle, using good old Speer Hot-Cor Bullets.

But of course the Speer Hot-Core bullets will shoot he best! Just kidding. I am quite intrigued by your finding there Hot Core. (You know, you are a mine of information and experience - I have learned a lot from your posts)!

STINGER, you say "you can pour in more powder and velocity will drop. I experienced this with the 35 Whelen and RL-15 powder and 225gr BT's. I could put in 60grs of powder but with 59.5grs I got higher velocity and better groups."
Did you observe signs of higher pressure?
El Deguello says "In my experience, the velocity drop was accompanied by HIGHER pressures." This is what I expect, based on the premise that at a critical point, the pressure behind the bullet will cause it to obturate to the point that bore friction increase results in lower velocity.

I think what Dr K is saying is that powder is not compressible. What 'we' are saying is that one can compact it in the case, that is, reduce the amount of air space between the granules, over and above tamping and tapping, by squeezing it down with a bullet. I understand ramrod340's question to be what the practical limit of this mechanical 'squeezing' down is. Well, I have found that with my 22Hornet and Lil'Gun powder, the normal amount of powder that would occupy the case volume is 13.1 grs. I can fit 13.7 grs into the case and still seat a bullet to magazine length, without it pushing forward and without the case spilling over before the bullet is placed over the powder. That would be 104.5%. On the other hand, AR2208 (Varget) does not compact too easily.

HotCore ; I'll answer you . No I wasn't talking about two different things , I was pointing out they are two different things . Never said they weren't either !.

The whole point of this useless futile conversation was related to " Capacity " of a case .

Ramrod340 posted this ;
Well as I was testing some loads for my new wildcat first thing I know I'm up to 104% capacity. Comparing a load to the base of the bullet with my heavier load. So what is your normal limit?.

I simply made a joke saying ; The Ionosphere .

Things went south from there .

Load density and Capacity are two separate issues . Capacity of any said container may not exceed 100% . NO MATTER HOW YOU SLICE IT OR SAY IT !.

" This is why values are a given ". My cases will hold powder of almost any type compressed or not makes NO DIFFERENCE it still isn't 100% capacity . Liquid filled to running out the top allowed to settle is 100% Cases Capacity .

So now someone explain to me how it's possible to get 104% capacity in a case !.

Powder load density I already explained way back like ball, short cut , Compressing Etc..

If a particular loading calls for say 75 grains of H414 and I put 85 in it , is this 110 % ?. NO !.

If a maximum listing for a particular load is say 75 grains and someone exceeds that by what ever amount then compresses the powder " You or they may consider that 104% capacity however it's NOT !. It's load density compaction !.

I fully understand about compressed loads !.

I use them is several different cartridges , I don't refer to them in percentages , as mine are still weighed no matter what .


The majority of you were WRONG , however unable to admit that !.

Read my original posting and point out where I was wrong in my reply !.

I simply stated ; I look for accuracy personally , and never really need to " Proof " my weapons . As in almost every single case accuracy is less than Maximum loading data . powder Bullet Rifling and Rifle barrel are keys , not excessive loads .

I didn't say YOU or HE is exceeding Safe limits !.

I believe I shall refrain from posting on this site . As some of you are SO POSITIVE OF YOUR CALCULATIONS !.


Shooting Straight & Knowing MY TARGETS !. ...

First and Foremost !.
I should like to apologize to everyone of you who I insinuated was a Moron !.

That was Very Rude of me !. Normally I just drop away rather than engage in childish semantics .

I do know the difference between compressed loading as well as density loading and case capacity !.

I would have been far better off to have phrased my answer to something like this ;

I dislike case percentages references when addressing loading issues as they are so variable as well as inaccurate .

Inaccurate referring to repeatability !. Not on the projectile accuracy . On sharing load data .

Weight is a MUCH MUCH more acceptable platform when duplicating loads .

I do like Humor ; As I had several misfires while loading with water . I resorted to using Heavy Water !.

So if I were to list a compressed load for any of you . I would ALWAYS give weight of said powder . How you fit it in your cases is your own business . As some tamp or Drop tube or Grind fine ( YES I have someone I know who has done this ) I don't like it or recommend it .

However he's older than I am and has been around the parlor stove several years .

Shoot Straight Know Your Target . As I was my own today !. ...

quote:

Originally posted by Dr.K:
How you fit it in your cases is your own business . As some tamp or Drop tube or Grind fine ( YES I have someone I know who has done this ) I don't like it or recommend it .

However he's older than I am and has been around the parlor stove several years .

Shoot Straight Know Your Target . As I was my own today !. ...

Didn't know I gave my age away and what the hell is a parlor stove? roger

Is everyone here an engineer?
I know Hot Core, bartshe, and I are... this quantifying density is anal.

In Cartridges of the World there is a passage about the 32 Special only better than the 30-30 to a degree to be discussed around the pot bellied stove set.

quote:

Originally posted by Dr.K:
Truncated for brevity...

I dislike case percentages references when addressing loading issues as they are so variable as well as inaccurate .

Inaccurate referring to repeatability !. Not on the projectile accuracy . On sharing load data .

Weight is a MUCH MUCH more acceptable platform when duplicating loads .

I do like Humor ; As I had several misfires while loading with water . I resorted to using Heavy Water !.

So if I were to list a compressed load for any of you . I would ALWAYS give weight of said powder . How you fit it in your cases is your own business . As some tamp or Drop tube or Grind fine ( YES I have someone I know who has done this ) I don't like it or recommend it .

However he's older than I am and has been around the parlor stove several years .

Shoot Straight Know Your Target . As I was my own today !. ...

Dr. K,

Ain't the English language wonderful? Definitions are loads more variable than loads, eh?

Thanks for the acknowledgement: I thought about using heavy water, but decided the risk of going nuclear was more than I could handle. I'm glad we didn't.

I just hope your friend didn't do his grinding too close the the stove when it was lit.

I do agree with you that weight is the only arbiter of loads easily transferable between cases and guns in a given cartridge and I hate to see anyone drop out of a lively debate. Working out the (multiple) differing sides of a question is often how truth and understanding is found. And, like hitting your head against a brick wall, it feels so good when it stops, and the agreement is reached.

Problem is, I keep having to replace the broken bricks.

Thanks for sticking around.

Lost Sheep

quote:

Originally posted by Lost Sheep:
Sorry, I could not resist. I know that an educated man appreciates good humor, so I have confidence that you will not take offense.

Just curious, what is it that you are a Doctor of?
Lost Sheep (Larry)

By memory, the humour loving Dr.K has stated he isn't the usual type Dr., but was given the title by his friends because he was a "know all". (Or something like that.)

And he seems an expert on wood. And I love reading posts about Walnut ect. Hows my memory?

quote:

Originally posted by Dr.K:
HotCore ; I'll answer you . No I wasn't talking about two different things , I was pointing out they are two different things . Never said they weren't either !.[

Hey Dr.K., I sure dislike disagreeing with that statement, but I agree you were only talking about "one" thing. Basically Water Capacity being non-compressable - I got it.

quote:

Things went south from there .

I've always found going South to be a HUGE improvement over going North.

quote:

Load density and Capacity are two separate issues .

Still agreeing and would love being farther South.

quote:

Capacity of any said container may not exceed 100% . NO MATTER HOW YOU SLICE IT OR SAY IT !.

Still agree with the generic definition. The problem seems to be centered arould the traditional colloquialism of Case Capacity in relation to some Powders being Compressable.

quote:

So now someone explain to me how it's possible to get 104% capacity in a case !.

OK, no problemo.

You can dump Stick and Flake Powders into a Case until it overflows(aka 100% Capacity) of lets say 100gr(making it easy for the math challenged folks). Then you can Compress those Powders enough that there is room for more Powder. And let's say we were able to add 5gr due to the Compression.

Now you have increased the Case Capacity to 105% using terms that are traditional Reloading colloquialisms. It is the jargon of Reloading.

It is listed as "Load Density" in Nosler Manual #3.
-----

quote:

If a maximum listing for a particular load is say 75 grains and someone exceeds that by what ever amount then compresses the powder " You or they may consider that 104% capacity however it's NOT !. It's load density compaction !.

I agree you are correct. The only real problem comes from the traditional Reloading colloquialisms and they are not going to change due to a discussion on any Board.

quote:

I believe I shall refrain from posting on this site .

I feel sure I'm not the only one that would miss your posts.

I completely agree with the wisdom posted by Larry(Lost Sheep), "Working out the (multiple) differing sides of a question is often how truth and understanding is found."
------

You don't always have to agree with folks to respect their opinion. Just the other day I spotted a post on a Bear Thread by a guy who's opinions I totally respect. He mentioned he was planning to build a weenie cartridge rifle to Hunt with. Said he wasn't fond of Recoil.

He will find that small holes create problems, even when things go well - if he hunts with it enough. No need to beat him up about it. He will enjoy blasting paper and smaller size critters with it, but is smart enough to distinguish the on-game performance indicators as being minimal.
-----

Speaking of going South, I hear a rumor that gas is $2.82/gal in Mexico. Anyone know how that is possible? Any chance that if you get 10gal there for $28.20 and then you go up to Calofoney and stick 10gal in for $48.20 that you are simply "Compressing in more gas"???

quote:

Now you have increased the Case Capacity to 105% using terms that are traditional Reloading colloquialisms. It is the jargon of Reloading.

It is listed as "Load Density" in Nosler Manual #3.

Hot Cor, Nosler has always listed this figure as a percentage of "load density", and not capasity as it seems some believe.

The idea it is a percentage of case capasity is something that I belieeve was started when some saw the recommendation in various magazines and data sources that it was best to use powder charges that filled the case to a certain level. They then confused that with Noslers density % in the manuals.

Dr K, stick around, we all disagree if we particapate here at some point, even if it is just over the "tone" of ones statements. People seem pretty terse in a lot of posts simply because of the difficulty of expressing ones-self in print, I know I`m hard to read at times. A little thickening of the skin will come soon. Beside, a bit of honest debate whether you are right or wrong seems to bring out the best ideas.

quote:

Originally posted by Ol` Joe:
[QUOTE]Dr K, stick around,

roger

I wouldn't leave this group for all the Tea in China !.

Now maybe for a couple of hot girls !. Wait that's another post !!.

YES YES and absolutely .

I though of something related to this , while sulking at the loading bench yesterday I was reloading some .223's . Deciding that heavy water rounds were extremely harmful to my barrel . Besides if I'd wanted heavy rounds I would have loaded .375's !. Ok humor Over !.

Different Cases of the same caliber have ( Can have ) different internal volume ( like LC , Remington , Lapua )

So volume % is kind of misleading isn't it .

I now have a pretty good understanding for my reprehensible referral to some of your mental states !. Again I'm sorry about that .

It's that Dam political forum !. It gotten to me !. Along with everything else including Gays marrying with legal Kommyfornia licenses !.

Assembly Bill 2062 Kommyfornia Ammo Limit and Tax bill ( Which read carefully affects reloading components ) .

Just when I though things couldn't get much worse than escalating fuel and food and anything else consumer related !.

I fear the " DARK SIDE " masquerading as the ultra liberal democrats are plotting to destroy America .

When clowns like Ophra Winfrey can change voting numbers 25-35% in two weeks .

This once Great Country is now DOOMED by the Democratic Media hype !.

( I shall not post any political anything any more ) .

It saddens me terribly to think how many have been sacrificed in VAIN ! , as the Media now runs the numbers !!!.

Shoot Straight Know Your Target. ...

quote:

Originally posted by Dr.K:

( I shall not post any political anything any more ) .

I certainly hope not roger

On a more serious note (not train smash serious), I have a thought that compressing Lil'Gun in my hornet actually 'reduces' peak pressure some. The powder compacts heavily at the neck/shoulder junction (I use the term 'shoulder' loosely here). I seems to me the shallow taper allows the powder to push forward before ignition of that zone or alternatively, the compaction in that zone slows the ignition a bit, to keep pressure down. I am after all, loading far more powder than listed as max, without excess pressure signs. (I have lost one case to overload when a WW case got into my R-P's. That case showed a flattened primer and when I checked, the primer pocket had loosened).

quote:

Originally posted by Dr.K:
... Different Cases of the same caliber have ( Can have ) different internal volume ( like LC , Remington , Lapua )

So volume % is kind of misleading isn't it ....

Yes, it can be. It has the potential to be misleading for the people who believe there are certain Cartridges that a "specific" weight of Powder will provide the very best accuracy in ALL firearms chambered for that Cartridge.

That is simply one reason among many, why Rookie Greens plagerized piece of trash called "OCW" is full-of-beans.

But, I've found some Compressed Loads to be the Best of the Best. Just depends on all the variables getting aligned to work together.
-----

Politics??? When you get to talking about that stuff, some folks tend to get their feelings hurt.

Like pointing out that hussein obamer's wife recently said she is "" FINALLY "" proud of America.