I have been reloading handgun cartridges for years, but in the last 4 months or so, I have been loading for my Savage AXIS ll in 308. I have used Varget and IMR 4895, with PPU once fired brass(by me through the same rifle). The bullets I am using are Hornaday Match 155gr and 168gr BTHP. The first loads I tried was a medium load of 43g Varget with 168 gr bullet (max is 46 gr). The load was accurate with no signs of over pressure. I then tried a medium load of 43g IMR 4895; immoderately I found the cases where sticking in the chamber and needed to be beat out with the palm of my hand. I reduced the load to 41 gr and the same happened. It was not until I reduced the load to less than 40 gr that the shells would eject without extra force.

After reading up on this issue I suspect the cause is the robust nature of the PPU military brass. Further, IMR- 4895 is known to ramp up in pressure rather quickly. My question is, is it safe to shoot the reduced loads; I have used 35gr and 36gr of IMR 4895, which is very accurate with my rifle.

BTW, I checked the Hodgdon/ IMR site which said IMR 4895 can be safely reduced by 60% of the max loading. In this case the max loading is 45.4 gr with a 168 gr BTHP bullet; 60% being 27.2 gr.

quote:

Originally posted by onespeedbiker:
BTW, I checked the Hodgdon/ IMR site which said IMR 4895 can be safely reduced by 60% of the max loading. In this case the max loading is 45.4 gr with a 168 gr BTHP bullet; 60% being 27.2 gr.

Are you sure they said IMR 4895 could be safely reduced to 60% max?

Hodgkin says that H 4895 can be, but that the 60% thing is specifically for H-4895. And then, there's this warning which suggests one should not extrapolate from H-4895 to IMR-4895 wrt reduced loads.

My bad, I know about the difference between IMR-4895 and H-4895, but I missed it when looking for reduced loads. So the question is even more important. Since The reduced loads show less over pressure indicators, can one assume it is safe?

Military Brass? are talking 308?

I use Lake city .308brass
I reduce my loads from 5% to 10% from minimum and work up. IMR4895. 168gr Sierra HPBT max load for me is 40grs.
starting loads 10% below min. is around 37grs.

(hmm yes that might be important. Yes, my bad it's a 308. Once I discovered the shells were sticking, I tested some reduced loads. The sticking stopped between 40-39gr. I tested down to 34g without any indications of over pressure. At that point I figured 39g as max and reduced it about 10% to 35-36 gr. These loads are also very accurate.

I also forgot to mention I made the mistake of doing a taper crimp with Varget loads (46 gr) which also caused the the shells to stick. Without any crimp they do not and I no longer crimp any of my rifle reloads (for now, I only have Match bullets without crimp grooves).

Welcome to AR I would not go any lower than 37 grains with imr 4895
any time you select a load from a manual it is recommended that you start low and work up. a lot can happen when you go to a full boat load DANGER.. especially when you change a component. Brass capacity changes from brand to brand and lot to lot. Military brass is usually heavier with less capacity than commercial brass.

I did not start full boar at all, I started with a med/low load first and still had over-pressure indicators of stuck shells. As I reduced the loads, I found I still had sticky shells, even though it was below the minimum load (41gr) given by Hodgdon /IMR reload data. Interestingly enough my Lyman data book shows 38g being the minimum for 168 g BTHP (42.5 max). OTOH, the Nosler book shows IMR-4895 168 BTHP 39 gr min to 43 max (I have a Hornaday data book on order).

Why are you using any type of crimp at all on a bolt action 308?

OK.. Your using different load manuals with there own set of components and there own rifles or universal receivers. different bullets different lots of powder and probably commercial brass. STARTIN to make any sense?
state low and work UP NOT High and work Down<.

posted 25 December 2017 17:51 Hide Post

""I did not start full boar at all, I started with a med/low load first and still had over-pressure indicators of stuck shells""

From the info for this load (military brass)you should have started 10% lower from 39,40, or 41 grains. but in this set of parameters with the 168gr bthp 41grains reduced by 10%

I just checked my copy of the last (I believe) manual Hodgdon published in hardcover, #26. In the .308 "Match Load" section they list 39 gr H-4895 as max with "168-172 gr BT" and "military brass".

In the .308 (commercial brass) section they list 42 gr max for both IMR-4895 and H-4895 with "165 gr". That would suggest a starting load of 38 to maybe 40 gr.

quote:

Originally posted by hivelosity:
OK.. Your using different load manuals with there own set of components and there own rifles or universal receivers. different bullets different lots of powder and probably commercial brass. STARTIN to make any sense?
state low and work UP NOT High and work Down<.

posted 25 December 2017 17:51 Hide Post

""I did not start full boar at all, I started with a med/low load first and still had over-pressure indicators of stuck shells""

From the info for this load (military brass)you should have started 10% lower from 39,40, or 41 grains. but in this set of parameters with the 168gr bthp 41grains reduced by 10%

Thank you, while I know that load data can be component specific, I use them as a starting point, as most do. Since IMR-4895 can become unstable at reduced loads, I was more than interested on how much one could safely reduce loads with that powder. Since I am new with reloading rifle ammo, I have not heard that one needs to reduce loads 10% with military cases. With that information my issues with over pressure and sticking cases seems easily correctable.

Well, now that I know that there is a difference loading military brass I did a search on "service load data" and there is a lot of info, primarily showing IMR 4895 loads with 168 gr bullets with a range of 37.0 to 39.0 grains with a max of 40.1gr. This pretty much jives with what I found when reducing my loads to stop the cases from sticking in the chamber. Thanks to all that responded.

Allowing for some differences in exact composition of brass used by different makers and slight differences in extractor groove dimensions, etc, case weight correlates inversely with internal capacity (water).

I have lots of RP .308 brass that are close enough to nato-stamped Win. OTOH, Winchester commercial is IME at the extreme light end, and my IVI (not IMI) is heavier than my lots of LC. Not a difference to ignore.

Not just a .308 issue. Anyone loading .300 WBY ought to understand the difference between WBY/Norma vs RP internal capacities.

I agree, no need for a crimp in a bolt gun, it only runs pressure UP, how much determines on the gun, the powder and bullet...usually 2000 to as much as 5000 PSI...

In your case why not use the Varget, its the proven best powder for the .308 along with WW-748 and IMR-4064 get second and third place in my .308s..you abandoned your best load??

PPU is the best brass on the market..I buy it from Grafs and Midway, its new comm. brass..I did not know they made MIlsurp brass..

I do load with Varget, in fact it the best powder I have found so far, but I ordered a couple of ponds of the IMR-4895 so I wanted to find some good loads using it.

Do you reduce your loads when using PPU brass? When I loaded the PPU brass with Varget using published data, unlike the IMR-4895, there was no sticking of the brass or any other signs of excessive pressure. However, after hearing about reducing loads with military brass I was thinking, even though there where no obvious signs of excess pressure, I should still reduce the published loads by 10%.

In practice adjust charge based on average weight of a particular headstamp/year. A longstanding rule (Bill Davis, IIRC) of thumb was to reduce powder charge one grain for every 16 grain increase in avg brass weight.

IME, typical commercial .308 brass goes mid-150s to mid 160s. My Hornady and RP are at the heavier end of the commercial spectrum.

My IVI (CBC) goes over 180gr, most of my LC and WCC is high 170s.

If you do a search on PPU brass weight (I just did) you'll discover a fair amount of variation. So determine average weight of your PPU, and go from there.

Wow! That is really good information. Thank you!

Check out this link and tell if thy are good weights to use.

My accumulated stockpile of brass includes the following manufacturers: CBC (Companhia Brasileira de Cartuchos), Federal, GFL (Giulio Fiocchi), Hornady Match, Lake City Match (NM 68, NM 77 and Match 91) PMC (Eldorado Cartridge Corporation—previously Patton and Morgan Corporation and Pan Metal Corporation), PPU (Prvi Partizan) WCC (Western Cartridge Company), and Winchester. I have found very little RP, Norma or Wolf brass. The Mean weight in grains of the listed manufacturers brass is as follows: Winchester at 157.13, Winchester nickel plated at 159.82, Hornady Match at 166.29, PPU at 166.94, Federal 308 WIN at 176.90, Lake City NM 68 at 177.55, Lake City Match 91 at 177.98, Lake City Match 77 at 178.45, GFL at 178.89, WCC at 179.48, PMC at 179.50 and CBC Nato 12 at 183.09.

http://m14forum.com/ammunition...ht-manufacturer.html

This was the link I was referring to: PPU variance

Not sure if this was a mixed lots issue, or just poor QC within a single lot.

But why guess? Weigh at least some % of your PPU.

The brass is from a 200 rd "Battle Pack" and are once fired by me. I weighed about 6 cases and they closely average about 175 gr.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Why are you using any type of crimp at all on a bolt action 308?

It was a mistake due to my lack of experience loading 308 rounds; I no longer do so.

quote:

Originally posted by onespeedbiker:
The brass is from a 200 rd "Battle Pack" and are once fired by me. I weighed about 6 cases and they closely average about 175 gr.

Interesting - they're on the heavier side for PPU. And good that they're pretty uniform. Bottom line: I would reduce recommended starting and maximum powder charges by 1.5 gr. Don't take a shortcut and start high.

this is where a Chrony would be invaluable.

Well isn't this interesting. I just got a hold of an older One Book/ One Caliber manual for 308. From the Hodgdon/ IMR website I was using, the data for IMR 4895 with 168g BTHP bullets shows 41g-45g. However the manual,under Hornady Bullets (the bullets I am using) shows for their BTHP 169g, IMR-4895 loadings are 36.7 to 39.5. Further, under Sierra bullets,for their 168 BTHP MK, the manuel shows IMR-4895 39 to 42.1g

Using the Hornady information I can understand why my military brass was sticking, considering the advice to reduce loads by 10% for Military brass.

I use only commercial PPU brass from Grafs or Midway, and Im not known for reduced loads, quite the opposite, ask anyone!

Reloading manuals are only a guide, I read them and compare them for fun, but when it comes to my tweeking a new rifle I start with a moderate load and work up gradually to the absolute max in that particular gun..The probably cut back a grain or two for my hunting max load, and let accuracy be my guide as well..In many case the max load will be the most accurate...I may not shoot max loads but I sure want to know where true max is with all my keeper rifles..Many folks have no clue where max is..I find that strange.

The issue is not looking for reduced loads, rather my issue with the military brass is the brass sticking in the chamber, which is not an issue with commercial brass, such as Winchester, PMC or S&B. The end result is having to reduce the load until the brass doesn't stick in the chamber.

Lets start over, your brass is sticking, if brass is sticking then you have excess pressure, so what other signs of pressure are present other than sticking, primer, extractor indention on case head, crack as opposed to a boom, a sticky bolt can be caused by poor harding of polishing of the U notch in the bolt body itself and not have anything to do with pressure..so it may be the gun itself, that area needs to be rehardened and polished again. simple procedure...

I shoot a lot of Lake city and some other brass in 30-06 and in .308, I pick up some velocity, thus pressure and light pressure increase signs, from my standard WW brass, but not enough to concern me and never had a case stick..

Do you have a benchrest chamber or are you shooting a std. factory rifle..what barrel and it may be tight, that happens..There may be other option to pursue is what Im suggesting..

Ive never had a problem with PPU brass, but Im a hunter not a bench shooter these days, I load max and the commercial PPU I use last longer than anything Ive seen in a long time. I started using it when brass was hard t come by as did a lot of folks and most never went back to WW or REm..

I have never seen or used milsurp battle brass by PPU, and that may be your problem but if its thicker than std. then you must reduce your load or so Ive been told, just never felt the need so far. These guys have been saying the same old story about thick Rem brass and I use the same powder charge in it as I do in my other brass, it picks up a small amount of velocity so pressure is greater but not enough to concern me.

I am pretty new to reloading rifle ammo, but I've been reloading handgun ammo for years; turns out they are different animals. I own a Savage Axis ll XP rifle. I first reloaded some PMC brass, IMR-4985 (not H-4895) and Hornady 168 BTHP; the Hodgdon/ IMR website showed 41.0 to 45.4 for the SMK 168gr. I started with 42gr and worked up to 44.5 gr with no pressure issues. (when I later checked the Hornaday loading information they showed the range much lower 35g -23.3gr for their 168gr BTHP).

I also had PPU NATO ammo so I shot up some of it and reloaded the cases using the same receipt ((when I later checked the Hornaday loading information they showed the range much lower 35g -23.3gr) starting with 42g again. This time, the shells were sticking in the chamber after firing the reloads (I really didn't see any other signs of excess pressure); as a control I also loaded up some SMK 168g bullets with the same load and got the same result. I reduced the load and found that 40g seemed to be the max load of IMR-4895 where the shells would would only stick 3-5 times out of 20, with 38.8 being the sweet spot with no sticking at all.

As I started to search for the reason for what seemed to be excess pressure with the military cases, I found that it is a well known issue; being made of thicker brass it develops more pressure. I even have an older (1995) One Book/One Caliber booklet for 308, where Hodgdon shows lighter loads (about 5%) for "GI" cases.

At this point, I have decided that as a new reloader of rifle ammo, the last thing I need is another variable to deal with, so I am going to stop trying to reload the PPU military ammo for now and stick with the commercial stuff for now.