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| One of Us |
Gentlemen, I have worked up a few loads for different rifles, and I have probably been lucky in that the worst group size has been around 2” and ending with a sub 1” group at 100. Or put it another way just about any of the loads would be a dead deer. My 223 shoots well under an inch with 50gn flat base softpoints and a yellow 1.6cc Lee Cup full of N133. But trying a new bullet - a sleeker pointier bullet. As a first test took my above load, loaded up four cartridges and its shooting a 3” plus group. Admittedly I have not yet done any development so next stage is try a number of different loads, but wondering if this is already the rifle telling me it doesn’t like these bullets, or do I just have to find the node. Is it fairly usual to get variation from say a 4” group down to 1/2” with a small change in load and have I just been lucky? | ||
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| Administrator |
You are not giving us enough details. Weight of bullets for instance. | |||
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| One of Us |
I am trying a 51gn Peregrine bullet. Rifle currently shoots the 50gn Hornady Softpoint very well which is good for shooting gongs. My hunting grounds stipulates and non lead bullet so working up a load for use on Roe deer. Rifle is a 223 with 1 in 12 twist. | |||
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| Administrator |
Ok. I looked these bullets, they seem to be very long, although I don’t suspect that is causing the inaccuracies in them. Are the bullet holes in the target round? Or do they show slight enlargement in one direction? This might tell you if the barrel is stabilizing the bullet. Also, you might wish to try several loads, from minimum to maximum, from the Vihtavuori book with this powder and 50 grain bullets. If you are unable get the results you want, a change to other make of copper bullet might be called for. | |||
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| One of Us |
In my opinion, if you are starting with a 3” group, the odds of satisfactory, (sub 1”), are not likely. NRA Patron member | |||
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| One of Us |
Thanks - yes I am going to try several different loads going up in 0.3gn increments. Load I have tried is 20.7gn which is a starting levels. They are longer bullets, and whilst Peregrine say they are suitable for 1 in 12 twist, I think / hope a bit more velocity does the trick. | |||
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| One of Us |
Look down the tube and make sure you still have rifling! That's what happened at the range. A young man called me over and pointed out the keyholing his 223 was doing at 100 yards. After looking at his gun, ammunition, I took the bolt carrier out, and guess what: LOOK MOM, No rifling! He had shot out the bore of his rifle and it was essentially a smooth bore. I looked up Peregrine bullets: https://peregrinemonolithics.c...t-peregrine-bullets/ Copper bullets. And I have no idea of the problems that creates. Is your barrel full of copper fouling? | |||
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| One of Us |
Its got plenty of rifling, barrel pretty clean - i work on the basis of clean rifling. And it shoots other bullets in well under 1” groups. | |||
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| One of Us |
My experience with copper bullets is that they are more picky, especially with OAL. I agree in that I doubt you will see sub MOA results with a 3-4” start, but you should get it down to usable on deer. I’d want to get an idea of what velocity you are dealing with first. Copper bullets are less dense, and thus longer. You may find a different powder gets better velocity with lower pressures. Once you have your charge weight, then try changing OAL within reason. If your velocity is low, a borderline stable bullet isn’t going to shoot well. | |||
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| One of Us |
My lessons with developing loads for Monometal bullets. When wanting to change a load to a different type and/or bullet weight it's often educational to make test loads with three different bullets. Ask around for tips on which have been accurate in your particular calibre and if the weights suit go and get some of those. For example , none of my rifles shoot Barnes inaccurately so most of my serious trophy hunting loads use Barnes TTSX. But other brands should shoot well also. You can even drop in weight slightly with monometal bullets due to their ( usually ) outstanding penetration on game. With two different propellants, with a spread of 4 to 6 different charge weights, for each bullet go and shoot 3 shot groups and compare results. Usually AT LEAST one bullet will show better and more consistent accuracy than the others ( I mean much better than 4 inch / 100 yd groups ). If you're lucky that might happen with two different bullets. That will then give you a basis to work on, refining the best charge, experimenting to find the best COAL and hopefully arriving at a load with acceptable velocity and accuracy. Once you decide on a load shoot it again at the range on another couple of occasions to ensure repeatable performance without flyers ! Then you should be set. Although not a monometal if you see something like the target below showing how tolerant this load is of RL17 with seven different charge weights you should be onto a winner.  Hunting.... it's not everything, it's the only thing. | |||
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| One of Us |
I don't load copper. so saying that. I do read a lot and it seems to me copper likes speed and a jump to the rifling for the best success. | |||
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| One of Us |
Thanks for that - yes I was hoping to get a group more like you showed. And I have seen a level of tolerance with other bullets and other rifles. I will work up a ladder test like you have done and see if I get any nodes. I was juts being lazy. | |||
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| One of Us |
Where are you on seating depth in this load development? Phil | |||
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| one of us |
Heym, FWIW, I have had a very picky gun that wouldn't shoot sub 3 inch groups with any of 3 or 4 factory loads suddenly shoot 3/4" with a specific powder and bullet. Groups opened up with more powder (gradually though). I tried other powders with the same bullet, and was back to 3 or 4 inch groups. Luckily, it was the 2nd or 3rd powder I tried and it was at the book starting load. It was one of my first rifles and reloading episodes. I think I was lucky. But it was like magic. | |||
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One of Us |
I have done load development with copper bullets for the last 20 years and haven't noticed any difference between them and lead cup core. Probably across 25 different rifles I have not seen a single improvement greater than 1.25 inches between best and work group during load development. I also don't think I have had single factory rifle shoot a group greater than 2.25 inches with any handload. I would look to see if something has gone bad with the rifle. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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| One of Us |
Gentlemen, thanks for all your thoughts and comments. Firstly I gave the rifle a good clean. By the time I shot that first group it had 50 odd rounds down the bore. It was still shooting the Hornady 50gn soft point well, as I shot a sub 1” group strait after the 4” Peregrine copper group. Both these used 21.7gn of N133. Then I did my usual ladder test. I loaded up 11 cartridges going up in 2 or 3gn increments from 21.7 up to 24.8gns. This serves two purposes. First test for pressure, and secondly to see if I get some form of grouping with adjacent loads. Yes it may be better to load up 3 rounds at each load, but price of powder and bullets in the UK and that I am an adopted Scot why waist precious powder and bullets. So end result at 100. Up to c23gns of powder - quite a spread, but then a sub one inch cluster of bullets from 23.5gns up to 24.8gns. Clearly its wanting to shoot. From 24.5 up get pressure signs - slight flattening of primer and primer flowing into bolt face around firing pin. So next step - load a few at 24gn and give them a try and then go hunting. Seems to be middle of node, and why go to pressure signs if you don’t need to. Clearly the bullets want velocity. Yes as they get downrange velocities will drop off, but these copper bullets will be used on Roe Deer, and a 223 in my view is sub 200m cartridge, and most shots are sub 100. Cleaning hasn’t affected accuracy of my existing load. Given I have periods when rifle might not be used for a few months, I keep barrels clean of fouling. | |||
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| One of Us |
Sounds like you're on track now. Hope you see the result you're looking for in the next test, and wishing you good hunting. Hunting.... it's not everything, it's the only thing. | |||
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| One of Us |
Well just to update. Explored things a bit further and loaded up two groups of 5 rounds at 23.7gn and 24.3gn of N133. The second was a little sticky on the bolt on a couple of cartridges and a bit over an inch. The first was 0.8” and no pressure signs. It’s good enough to shoot any Roe Deer, so have loaded up the rest of the box. Dropped the sights byv4 clicks - it was shooting 2” high. Fired a test shot - zero spot on, so went hunting for a Roe Buck. Of course the Roe Buck season started yesterday so saw four nice does. | |||
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| One of Us |
Great result. Looks like you've sorted a very good load in fairly quick time. Starting from scratch I'm used to shooting anywhere from 50 to 100 rounds in load development but have usually found an ideal load by then. That is, in calibres .30 and under. I really like doing load development for my .375 H&H. I have several good loads for various bullets, some of which were found with fewer than 50 shots. Good luck on the Roe. I remember seeing numerous in England and Scotland. Cool deer. Hunting.... it's not everything, it's the only thing. | |||
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Have you shot a Satterlee Ladder If not.....STOP!! 100% of my load development starts and ends with the Satterlee Ladder ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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| One of Us |
If the Satterlee question is addressed to me, the answer is no, I have not tried that. I Googled a couple of videos that ran through the procedure which seems logical enough and I already have a mediocre chronograph so should be able to give the system a try. Might be a few weeks as I have no need currently to work up a new load. Hunting.... it's not everything, it's the only thing. | |||
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| one of us |
Put your faith in the bench rest, not someone elses rifle!! Remember a rifle (barrel) is an inity unto itself... Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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| One of Us |
Put your faith in the bench rest, not some one elses rifle!! From what I see the Satterlee system is about finding the / an accuacy node for the rifle in which the chosen loads are shot. It's not about adapting other loads to the chosen rifle. Still, I'm not sure how well it might work for me until I give it a whirl. Hunting.... it's not everything, it's the only thing. | |||
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| One of Us |
The Satterlee Ladder Method has nothing to do with someone else's rifle ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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| One of Us |
I was sceptical until a couple trusted friends used it for a few years. Now....my rifle loads start and end with the SLM and in less then 10 shots I have a fantastic load more often then not But Note: An accurate chronograph is required ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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| one of us |
I wasn't refering to the SAtterlee method at all..I was suggesting the best test for load development to the average shooter..Ive never used the Satterlee method, Ive only read about it, sounds reasonable enough.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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| One of Us |
I find OCW to be a little more work but more effective. What I don't like about Satterlee is it is one round at each charge weight. An extreme spread of 18 is a good extreme spread. But what if two charge weights next to each other are high then low of their respective spreads, Now it appears you have two loads the same but they are not. What Satterlee does in 10, OCW does in 18 and you have three data points for each of six loads and you have group size and POI. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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| One of Us |
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| one of us |
I start by determining the max loads in my rifle using my chronograph and going by pressure signs..no target just out my shop door.. Then I load 3 or 5 rounds of each and set up a 100 yard target in the desert behind my house, if any one of those show pressure signs I put them back in a box to unload..I pick my best two or three based on pressure and accuracy, any future loads will be tested the same way. I suppose thats old school, but it sure works for several reasons.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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