I have been reloading ammo for a very long time and up until now when my brass became warn or work hardened I just threw them away and baught new. New cases if you thik about it really isn't that expensave. However saying all that I'm beginning to reconsider after reading an article in handloader magazine about annealing 45-70 cases for blackpower target shooting. I guess in a way softening the case would cause the case to seal better against gas leaking at the time of fireing. I have never anneal a case but I worked the the Aluminum industry for 30 years and to anneal aluminum we would just stick it in an oven for several hours at around 600 degrees. Then let it cool on its own in ambient air. Can I do this with brass cases or are there procedures to follow? also if annealing is so important to accuracy. Why don't the cases already come from the factory that way? Or am I just making a lot out of nothing? Aany ideas or comment would be great.

Place cases in a pre-heated 350 oven for one hour; leave in oven to cool completely-- do not quench.

I suspect the manufacturers do not anneal because it would take too much time and cost too much in energy. I'm guessing they assume 99% of shooters trash their brass after one shot anyway, and that a 3" group at 100 yards is good enough on a deer or elk at less than that distance. Most shots on deer and elk are at under 100 yards, correct? I have never hunted, so I don't know. I'm a paper killer...

Several companies anneal the cases, such as Laupa and Hornady.

Try the search function, lots of good info.

Such as:

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tp.../r/51410725#51410725

Woody

If you do anneal you do not want to anneal the entire case. And you definitely do not want to heat the case so it glows cherry red. Rather you need to used a technique that limits the annealing action to the case neck and upper portion of the shoulder so the progressive hardness gradient from case mouth to head is preserved. The best method I have found is that described In Designing and Forming Custom Cartridges by Ken Howell. Basically the bottom of the shoulder is marked with a temperature sensitive crayon( you can get these in the 650-660 degree f range, about the temp where brass anneals) and the case neck is heated with a very fine, very hot flame. As soon as the crayon melts/changes color stop and get the case cooled quick so the rest of the case doesn't get heat soaked.

Sounds like a lot of things to do. I just wonder as a paper puncher if that much trouble will make that much differance? What about pistol cases? most pistol cartrages are low pressure compared to rifle. It seems to me that anneling a pistol case would't help much?? Just wondering.

You can anneal the relevant pert of a case by standing them in a shallow tray of water with the portion to be treated clear of the water level, apply a fine heat flame and work all around the neck area and before the case neck glows red knock the case over into the water to quench it. A correctly annealed case mouth will often show a colour patina of blue/ light blue in the case mouth area.

Many ammunition manufacturers anneal their brass, some leave the colour patina visible such as Lapua, others may well tumble polish the brass following annealing, the last Win .458 Mag ammo I saw made by Winchester exhibited clear signs of heat treatment to the cases

Placing the entire case into an oven will soften the head / web area of the case which is not ideal as this area should remain in comparative terms "hard" and thus prevent possible primer pocket expansion

Ok, let's get things in perspective. All manufacturers anneal ALL the brass. You cannot draw a case without annealing it multiple times: the brass would end up breaking and cracking before it was ever near it's final shape.

Second, the benefit of annealing is a softer neck (as mentioned, you want to re-anneal only the neck and maybe the shoulder). Softer necks have more neck tension, which can be beneficial. When done right, re-annealed necks are also more consistent in their tension and release pressure, which is a good thing.

For a detailed discussion, visit http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html. FWIW, Dutch.

The necks are annealed otherwise there would be stress corrosion cracking of the necks.Crimping and belling the mouth hardens the brass.Annealing of brass starts at about 450F.Jonathan's method is the most convenient.Do not anneal anything but the neck !

Here is a very good article on annealing:

http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

Its rather long, but very informative.

Kory

DO NOT UNDER ANY MEANS HEAT THE ENTIRE CASE!!!!! TO DO SO WILL CAUSE YOUR CASE TO BE TOO SOFT AT THE HEAD, AND YOU MAY VERY WELL BLOW PRIMERS AND RIFLE TO HELL!!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Dutch:
Ok, let's get things in perspective. All manufacturers anneal ALL the brass. You cannot draw a case without annealing it multiple times: the brass would end up breaking and cracking before it was ever near it's final shape.

Second, the benefit of annealing is a softer neck (as mentioned, you want to re-anneal only the neck and maybe the shoulder). Softer necks have more neck tension, which can be beneficial. When done right, re-annealed necks are also more consistent in their tension and release pressure, which is a good thing.

For a detailed discussion, visit http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html. FWIW, Dutch.

IMO this is a correct statement.

The Templaq indicator supplied with the Hornady annealing kit is for 475 degrees. The article seems to imply that a temp of 700-800 degrees would be necessary to properly anneal cases using the method described by Hornady. What gives?

Geronimo

Geronimo,

I don't know why HDY sells a 475 F indicator. It is way too low for annealing brass. One of the problems with those indicators is that they don't work well if you heat up too fast, so maybe just be safe, HDY chose a lower temp in case you over shoot? I don't use any of those indicators myself -- I think they are a waste of time and money.

Kory

This has certainly been covered in this post thoroughly but, I just want to add my two cents. In regards to those who state that the brass manufacturers anneal ALL of the case, that is true during certain stages of the drawing process or the case would crack/split. During the last stages, they do not anneal the entire case but, leave the head relatively hard. At what point they do this, I don't know but, they only anneal the necks at the last stage. Putting a many times reloaded cartridge in an oven and annealing the entire case would be VERY dangerous. When you begin to get partial head separations, throw it it away and buy new brass. Anneal the necks all you want and the brass should last well beyond "normal" use. My method of annealing is quite simple. Decap all of the cases, they do not need to be sized. Put about 1" of wanter in a shallow pan (depending on the overall length of the case) and place the cases upright in the pan. Take a butane torch available from Wal-Mart or your local hardware store, and heat the necks until you see them start to glow and immediately tip them over in the pan. If you really want to be sophisticated, you can get a Templac (SP, and I don't know what temperature range you would need)) crayon and put a mark on the neck and when it melts, tip it into the water.

quote:

Originally posted by Geronomo:
The Templaq indicator supplied with the Hornady annealing kit is for 475 degrees. The article seems to imply that a temp of 700-800 degrees would be necessary to properly anneal cases using the method described by Hornady. What gives?

Geronimo

If I am not mistaken, the directions of the Hornady kit give instructions to put the Tempilaq on the case BODY, and discontinue heating the neck when the indicator on the body liquifies. I would assume that they have experimented, and that the 200 degree differential holds for most cases.

In my limited experimentation, I would say that holds for cases such as the 223 and maybe the 06 based cases, but it does not hold for all. With my WSSM cases, the thickness of the wall conducts heat MUCH better, and it is actually quite difficult to get the necks warm enough.

Another factor should be taken into account is duration. There is nothing magical about the 670 degree number, but at that temp, annealing takes place rather quickly (what we do is actually re-crystallization, not annealing, but that's what we call it).

The graph below shows the wide range of applicable temperatures (in C.) at which brass can be re-crystallized.


The engineering page where this picture was pilfered from:

http://www.cda.org.uk/megab2/costeff/pub117/sec62.htm

FWIW, Dutch.

quote:

Originally posted by Kory:
... I don't use any of those indicators myself -- I think they are a waste of time and money...

Hey Kory, I do agree with you.

Once a person places a bucket of water on the floor, holds a case by the head with his left fingers and thumb, heats the Caseneck "quickly" with a Propane Tourch and when he feels the heat in his left fingers just drops it into the water - it works just that easily.

Same for setting the Cases upright in a pan of water and heating the Casenecks and when red, you need to tip them over into the water so the Annealing is actually done.

Water quenching the Hot Caseneck is required for it to Anneal. Air quenching won't do it.
---

quote:

Originally posted by sed1945:
It seems to me that anneling a pistol case would't help much??

I never considered Annealing a Pistol or Revolver case, because of their short length and longevity. By the time you begin getting Neck Splits with these, it really is time to Trash them.
---

quote:

Originally posted by DavidReed:
The best method I have found is that described In Designing and Forming Custom Cartridges by Ken Howell. Basically the bottom of the shoulder is marked with a temperature sensitive crayon( you can get these in the 650-660 degree f range, about the temp where brass anneals) and the case neck is heated with a very fine, very hot flame. As soon as the crayon melts/changes color stop and get the case cooled quick so the rest of the case doesn't get heat soaked.

Hey David, Have you ever tried just holding the Case in your fingers and dropping it in the water when you feel it getting Hot?

The reason I ask is because the "howl" method you mention got him awarded the infamous "howl CARET Factor" moniker over on HA years ago.

It stands for "howl Complicating Any Relatively Easy Task". howl could make Depriming a single spent case with a Universal Deprimmer into a 5-hour job. I've NEVER understood why howl always seems to enjoy making Reloading way too complicated for the Beginners.

Not whamming on you at all. If you enjoy using the Temp Sticks, by all means do so. I've just never seen the need for them myself.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by Kory:
... I don't use any of those indicators myself -- I think they are a waste of time and money...

Hey Kory, I do agree with you.

Once a person places a bucket of water on the floor, holds a case by the head with his left fingers and thumb, heats the Caseneck "quickly" with a Propane Tourch and when he feels the heat in his left fingers just drops it into the water - it works just that easily.

Same for setting the Cases upright in a pan of water and heating the Casenecks and when red, you need to tip them over into the water so the Annealing is actually done.

Water quenching the Hot Caseneck is required for it to Anneal. Air quenching won't do it.

Hot Core,

That's exactly what I do, except I spin the case in the Hornady annealing case holder and tip it over in the bucket when I see a very dull red color in a dark room.

Regards,
Kory

As far as I'm concerned the 45/70 is one big honkin' pistol case. In the Artical in Dec 05 issue of Handloader Magazine an artical by Mike Venturuno was where I got the question about annealing. He was talking about reloading for BPCR matches. So maybe I'm trying to compare apples with pruns? Most black powder loads usually only runs aroud 6000 P.S.I right? So maybe to get a good seal yo need softer brass? But really not that nessasary for smokeless?

quote:

Originally posted by sed1945:
As far as I'm concerned the 45/70 is one big honkin' pistol case. ...So maybe I'm trying to compare apples with pruns?

Hey sed1945, If I was Annealing a 45-70(which I have never done), I do believe I'd go with the old Standing-the-case-in-Water Method. The water should be cool and come up the case about 3/4". Heat the Case mouth with a Propane Tourch until it begins to turn red(in a darkened room) and tip it over into the water.

You can practice on some old cases with split mouths or whatever to get the feel for it.

Your best bet might be to start a Thread with "Black Powder 45-70" somewhere in the title so as to focus the discussion to people that have experience there - I don't. And you could post it here and on the Black Powder Board.

quote:

Originally posted by sed1945:
Sounds like a lot of things to do. I just wonder as a paper puncher if that much trouble will make that much differance? What about pistol cases? most pistol cartrages are low pressure compared to rifle. It seems to me that anneling a pistol case would't help much?? Just wondering.

Virtually all drawn brass is annealed, often several times., by the manufacturers. It is just as important in pistol bsrass as in rifle brass, as there is more than one reason they do so. One reason is for strength/flexibility. Another is for ductility during the drawing process.


As to its importance to the handloader...an example:

In he early 1960's I bought a couple of boxes of new Herter's .357 Magnum brass directly from Herter's. I loaded it all with recommended starting loads. Each and every case of the first box I loaded (all 50) split on first firing. Needless to say, I was not pleased.

In those days, the U.S. NRA offered a free "technical service" to their members. A member could send in components, guns, whatever, which had caused problems. the NRA tech staff would evaluate the problem, advise the member what they found wrong (if anything), and return the goods to the member. So, I sent them some of both the new unused cases and the fired (split) cases.

Their response to me was that the Herter's brass was improperly annealed during manufacture and thus was too hard and too brittle to be safely used. They also said that it was the lack of quality control in the processes of the manufacturers of Herter's components that caused the NRA to not allow Herter's to advertise in American Rifleman.

I never had any trouble with other Herter's products, but I didn't buy any more of their .357 brass.

Hot Core, I know this sounds crazy but I am considering doing it on 38 super and 45 acp brass. Every little thing I can do to promote accuracy I'm willing to do. I believe accuracy starts at home not on the range.

quote:

Originally posted by sed1945:
Hot Core, I know this sounds crazy but I am considering doing it on 38 super and 45 acp brass. Every little thing I can do to promote accuracy I'm willing to do. I believe accuracy starts at home not on the range.

Hey sed1945, I "doubt" you can do it on cases that short. This gets back to the post above that mentioned getting the Case-heads too soft.

If you get them too soft, you could end up having a Case-head failure which "might" wreck your Pistol, your hands, eyes, all the previous, or no damage at all.

The problem is that since these cartridges (38Spl and 45ACP) are always shot at considerably lower Pressure than rifles, "I don't know" where the Safe Pressure level would be. Especially for the Pistol cartridge.

What I'd recommend you do is go to a Match and ask some questions there with the guys that are really good. Some will be Snobs and some will be regular folks that are glad to help you out.

Same about joining a Pistol/Revolver Club. Some good and bad in all of them.
---

For many years I was fairly good with a Pistol. I would simply buy 2500 cases from the same Lot and use them in groups of 100. Once I got a Neck Split, then I tossed that Lot of 100.

Before that I used Military ammo and the Case had less influence on my 45ACP groups than the actual Load being used.

If you are near a Police Range or have a buddy on the force, ask him about Range Pick-Ups. When they Qualify, a lot of them use brand new Factory Ammo. As long as the "Headstamps" are alike, they should do fine.

There are three different law Enforcement outfits in the County where I am right now. One group restricts the firearms to department issue, one restricts the Caliber used and the other one has no restrictions on Caliber as long as you can Qualify with what you carry. They have all kinds of Cases available just for asking.

If you go this route and have a "Flier" that ruins a good group, mark the case. Try it once more and if it still creates a Flier, toss the case. Otherwise, it was just the Trigger Yanker.
---

Just dawned on me, surely you are not burning Black Powder in the 38Spl or 45ACP?

Best of luck to you.

LOL, No but I do owe a black powder rifle that collects dust. I just read the article and got to thinking.