I have used my Redding Type S-Match Neck Dies with the appropriate bushing to neck size my fired cases for some time now. I don’t use the expander when neck sizing only. After sizing I measure the cases for neck run out and although some are normally pretty good (0.001" or less), the majority of the cases still measure 0.002" or more run out. I have read positive reviews on the Lee Collet die and how it can improve the concentricity of case necks compared to other more expensive dies. So I ordered two for different calibers the other day and sized a few fired cases today. I followed the set up instructions meticulously, but cannot get the die to size a case neck with enough bullet grip/tension. I can push a bullet into the case mouth with my fingers without much of an effort. IMO, that’s not right. I have checked...it is the correct mandrel! With the bushing dies, I choose bushing sizes that will not unnecessary size the case neck more than what is needed for to get a firm, but not a tight grip. I have found that a lighter bullet grip equals better accuracy in my rifles. Yet the bullet grip is firm enough for hunting purposes.

According to Lee’s instructions, a tighter fit can be achieved if you anneal the case necks or polish the decapper mandrel 0.001" smaller. I guess you need to stick the mandrel into a drill to polish it smaller evenly. Without going into the trouble of polishing the mandrel, I took the cases that have been sized with the Collet die and resized them with the Bushing die, using the largest bushing I have to size the neck without a great deal of a resistance. I didn’t even use case lube around the necks. The result was a firmer bullet grip and most unexpectedly, an improvement of at least 0.001" in case neck run out. I have only sized a few cases and don’t want to get too excited.

Have any of your guys used the Collet die and a Bushing die simultaneously to improve concentricity? I know it is an extra step in the reloading process, but if you only size 20 to 50 cases at a time, surely the 5 minutes extra isn’t a train smash if you can shoot straighter. And you don’t even have to use case lube. Any thoughts will be appreciated.

Have you checked your neck wall thickness around the necks? Sometimes it can vary a few thousandsths and that is what is causing your neck runout. The inside can be concentic if run over an expander ball or mandrel but the outside varies because of neck wall variation. If you run the same case through the bushing or FL die without an expander ball it will show just the opposite - the outside will be concentric but the inside won't be and when you seat a bullet the outside will show up off.
We noticed this with several lots of 375 H&H Brass that kept showing 7-8 thousanths runout no matter which dies we used and how - turns out the necks varied that much...................DJ

I don’t think the case neck wall thickness is the problem. Those cases that have shown a variation in thickness, I’ve neck turned.

SAR, your experience with the Redding Type-S dies matches mine. I also had high hopes, but was disappointed by the amount of runout produced. I've had far better results with a fixed, FL die (Forster) honed to a specific neck diameter and used without expander. Not as flexible as the bushing dies, but produces less runout for me.

Now, the single biggest weakness of the Collet die is probably control of neck tension. These dies simply don't produce a bunch of tension, and when light tension is the result, you often get varying tension. However, the fact that you can not get the neck to hold your bullet most likely comes from incorrect die setup/adjustment.

The first thing to do when setting up the Collet is to take advantage of the "extra" turns into the press the die instructions specify. If memory serves, it is something like 2 extra turns (after the die hit the shellholder at highets ram position) for presses that toggle over, and 1/2 turn for presses that don't (verify from instructions, please). Try that and see if that sizes the neck sufficiently. In addition to that, you can essentially turn in your Collet die until it starts interfering with your case shoulder, this progressively gives you more neck tension. The thing to watch out for, is the diameter of the case just below the shoulder. This dimension must NOT grow during the Collet sizing operation, then you have the Collet die set up too far into the press. You must feel the collet close with a certain amount of pressure from the press handle - see instructions for exact amount.

Secondly, as you have started fiddling with, you can gain some extra neck tension by reducing the diameter of the decapping mandrel. This should only be considered auxiliary tension though, and the die should give you sufficient tension (to at least hold the bullet), without using this trick. This is the last ace up your sleeve, so to speak, so don't play it prematurely.

Thirdly, the Collet does not work too well with work-hardened cases, if your cases are old, try it on a newish case, and see if that changes anything. If yes, consider annealing your old cases. Remember to size each case at least twice in your Collet: size, lower handle, turn case, size again. This will also give you a tad more tension.

All in all, if you can't get enough tension to hold the bullet, either the die setup is incorrect, or (has happened) the die is faulty - it's a Lee after all...

No, I have never used the Collet and Bushing dies in combination. But if it works for you and produces the results you want, go for it. It is often I use multiple steps in my sizing operations, no big deal if you are only sizing a comparatively low number of cases... I could imagine the Type-S works better in combination with the Collet, because it does not have to reduce the neck diameter as much. This seems to be a problem of bushing dies - runout is often associated with "heavy" (i.e. from high to low diameter) sizing.

Good luck fiddling with your Collet. I'm sure you'll get it right in the end.

- mike

quote:

Originally posted by mho:

The first thing to do when setting up the Collet is to take advantage of the "extra" turns into the press the die instructions specify. If memory serves, it is something like 2 extra turns (after the die hit the shellholder at highets ram position) for presses that toggle over, and 1/2 turn for presses that don't (verify from instructions, please). Try that and see if that sizes the neck sufficiently. In addition to that, you can essentially turn in your Collet die until it starts interfering with your case shoulder, this progressively gives you more neck tension. The thing to watch out for, is the diameter of the case just below the shoulder. This dimension must NOT grow during the Collet sizing operation, then you have the Collet die set up too far into the press. You must feel the collet close with a certain amount of pressure from the press handle - see instructions for exact amount.

- mike

Hey mike

I don't think you can adjust the Lee Collet in far enough to interfere with the shoulder. The mechanism of the die prevents the neck sizing collets from contacting the case body or shoulder.

I adjust all my collet dies (22-250, 270, 280, 7 mag, 30-06, 300 win mag, 300 WSM and 338) so the lock nut is at the end of the threads at the top of the die, about 4 turns down. This puts the press handle at a horizontal and makes it easier to put downward pressure on it. There is no contact with the shoulder or case body that I can measure. I then put some body weight on the top of the horizontal handle, even lifting my right leg a little. I have heard of some popping the cap but have not had that problem.

When I get around to it, I am going to order some undersized mandrels from Lee. They are only $5.00 ea + shipping. Not that I've ever had a problem with bullet grip, just want to try increased grip and see if it will alter accuracy.

Have yet to receive a defective Lee Collet Die.

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
I don't think you can adjust the Lee Collet in far enough to interfere with the shoulder. The mechanism of the die prevents the neck sizing collets from contacting the case body or shoulder.

I adjust all my collet dies (22-250, 270, 280, 7 mag, 30-06, 300 win mag, 300 WSM and 338) so the lock nut is at the end of the threads at the top of the die, about 4 turns down. This puts the press handle at a horizontal and makes it easier to put downward pressure on it. There is no contact with the shoulder or case body that I can measure. I then put some body weight on the top of the horizontal handle, even lifting my right leg a little. I have heard of some popping the cap but have not had that problem.

Woods, I had always worried about the adjustment of the Collets, so early in my days as a Collet user, I asked Lee whether it was possible to inadvertently push back the shoulder and create a headspace problem. The answer was "no, it was not possible".

Fast forward a few years, I was sizing for a 6.5x55, and the Collet die was the only game in town, as I was waiting for my modified Forster FL to be returned after modification. I got to the range, and the Collet sized cases would hardly chamber - a few could be "hammered" into the chamber, but most simply refused. Luckily, I only live about 15 minutes from the range, so I quickly ran home to attempt to resolve the mystery. Well, it turned out that Collet sized cases had a (just below) shoulder diameter several .001" larger than fired cases. Turning the die further out in the press (until shoulder dimension did not vary over sizing) fixed the problem.

I have not had this happen with other Collet dies, so I'm not sure if this was a once-off problem. Collet dies vary quite a bit in dimensions. The instruction says to use the point where the collet touches the shell holder as the reference point for further turn-in. However, in some Collets, the collet actually moves quite a ways up into the die, whereas in others this movement is not or hardly noticeable.

I once busted the cap off a Collet, but I can't remember what was wrong. Some Collets work very smoothly, others seem to require quite a bit more oomph to close the collet. I have never figured out exactly why? Probably has something to do with varying adjustment and slop in the die.

- mike

If you inadvertently screw the Lee collet die too far into your press, you'll strip the cap-retaining threads (as mho and I have discovered).

To increase pressure with the Lee die does nothing as far as bullet grip. Once the brass is forced to the mandril, it can go no farther and more pressure only tries to thin the brass. If the brass is hard and springs back, no amount of adding more force will correct it. If annealing doesn't cure the problem, only reducing the mandril will work.
Brass must be even thickness for all cases. Thick and thin necks mixed will drive you nuts no matter what dies you use as will uneven thickness on each case.
I don't care what dies are used, if a neck is .004" thicker on one side, you have .004" built in runout.
Never expect ANY dies to fix a problem with brass.

Of course, to adjust the Lee die to just short of blowing out the threads can squeeze the thicker side of the brass thinner. But it HAS to go somewhere! Did it flow into the shoulder or did in elongate the neck on that side?

SA
Your redding bushing my not have any corner radius on the ID to funnel the case into the bushing. This would cause high forces on the case before it finally buckles enough to form the neck inward to size it. by comparison the Wilson bushings have about a .020 radius on the edge. If you have a lathe or a large drill press you might polish a radius on the inner edge of your Redding bushing. If not you might be able to lap a chamfer on it with a full length sized case and the lapping compound applied only to the shoulder.
I have several sets of the collet dies but do not use them much. In the case of the 6mm Remington they work well with the thicker Remington brass and do not work with the thinner
winchester brass. Putting more force on the collet puts vertical lines on the case neck which will probably reduce its life.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Brasky:
If you inadvertently screw the Lee collet die too far into your press, you'll strip the cap-retaining threads (as mho and I have discovered).

This is the case only if you are attempting to adjust the die so that the press "toggles over" in which case you are not using the dies according to the instructions and the way they were meant to be used. If you have the die adjusted close to the toggle-over point then you can apply too much pressure (by toggling-over) and it will pop the cap. These dies are meant to be adjusted so that the press does not toggle over and approximately 25 pounds of body weight put on the press handle.

Again, I have all my Lee Collets adjusted to the top of the threads and screwing them up or down only changes the angle of the lever.

I have numerous Lee collet dies and like them, but had to learn how to best use them. I have always worried about applying consistent force on the stroke of the handle when the die is screwed down as far as the instructions say. Unless you have a heavy weight attached to the same point on the handle every time, your arm can apply inconsistent force to process.

Although the instructions say NOT to let your press toggle over at the end of the stroke, I have adjusted the collet dies so that they just BARELY - and I mean just BARELY - toggle over at the bottem of the stoke. My press is a a 30 year old Rock Chucker. The weight of the press arm iself is about enough to make it toggle over, and I lower the arm slowly enough so that there is no momentum at the bottom of the stroke. Then I set the lock ring om the die and never have to adjust it again. I use Hornady style lock rings that screw securely in place, not the Lee style with the rubber ring, which IMO can cause variability in the die position each time it is screwed in.

This method has been succesful on all 7 of the Lee collet dies I use, and I have up to 8 reloads on 22-250 with no issues as to neck tension. I do find that high pressure loads will begin to chamber more difficultly after about 4 reloads with neck sizing only. This makes sense, since only the neck is being worked. A normal pass through a full length resizer takes care of that if they become harder to chamber than I like.

I also have the cases thoroughly clean before I use the collet die system. I can't quantify that it helps, but it would seem to take another variable out of the process.

The Lee Collet Neck Sizer is a great tool but, as with many things mechanical, we can't simply follow a formula of "touch here and turn 2.3 turns there", etc. The Lee formula will give a place to start, not a place to finish!

I think most users either don't turn the die in far enough or don't use enough pressure to properly size the necks. Over pressure will strip the threads on the aluminum cap, it is designed that way to serve as a "fuse" to keep from damaging the press. We must develope a feel for what is enough pressure and that won't come immediately - but if your bullets are loose you haven't pressed quite enough! However, if you see the four longitudenal creases made by the collet you have gone as far as you can without die damage. The brass won't cold flow at the pressures we can generate in a press but the press linkage will flex a bit. If the collet sleeve interferes with the shoulder it was made a bit shallow, otherwise it cannot affect a shoulder

If you can't get the neck tight you need to anneal cases AND/OR turn the mandrel down a bit. It is easy to spin and sand/polish the mandrel in a drill to reduce it's diameter acouple of thousants BUT you have to reduce the entire lower end or it will re-expand the neck as you withdraw the case.

Polishing the dies inner tapered mating surfaces and giving them a light coat of grease will often reduce the amount of pressure needed to form the necks.

Jim, well said!

I use the collet dies alot.In my opinion the collet die and the factory crimp die go hand in hand.Get the case to hold the bullet,then just snug up the bullet with the FCD.Works very well for me and my needs as a hunter and informal target shooting.... eliminates variations in case to case neck tension variables in one easy step.A full crimp isn`t necessary,just snug it up.

After reading all of the posts on this thread, I guess I'll stick with bushing dies. The collet dies sound like a circus in action.
With bushing dies, you can do the math beforehand, select the correct bushing, size a neck, and measure results. You're looking at an interference fit between neck ID and bullet OD of .0015 to .004. With good dies like Wilsons or Neil Jones', I wouldn't be concerned with runout, and don't even bother measuring runout when I use them. The results, good accuracy, supports this approach.
I like less confusion in reloading, not more, as the collet dies seem to introduce.

Don

I tend to agree with DMB. The day that I have ordered the dies, I didn’t expect it would be so difficult to size a neck to hold a bullet firmly. But I will give the Collets a change and experiment with the different tips suggested by your guys. Thanks for the valuable information.
Ireload2, good tip for reducing the force on the case before the neck enters the bushing. Makes a lot of sense and I will definitely try it.

If all things fail, I guess I will be using my Collets with my Bushing Dies in combination. So far it works for me. Anything that will reduce the amount of run out, I am willing to try and perfect.