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Because of availability I have bought 100 300 WM Lapua brass. I have been using Winchester and R-P for years reloading. My current load is 71gr.(max) Barnes 180gr. TTSX. IMR 4831 w/CCI 250 Magnum Primers. I am not an in the weeds reloader and have my loads for my rifles (hunting) and don't vary. What does this forum recommend? Zim 2006 Zim 2007 Namibia 2013 Brown Bear Togiak Nat'l Refuge Sep 2010 Argentina 2019 RSA 2023 Tanzania 2024 SCI Life Member USMC | ||
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Additionally, My Barnes book says 71.0gr IMR 4831 and updated say 69.9 max. I have been using 71 gr for a long time. Whats up with that?
Zim 2006 Zim 2007 Namibia 2013 Brown Bear Togiak Nat'l Refuge Sep 2010 Argentina 2019 RSA 2023 Tanzania 2024 SCI Life Member USMC | |||
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The drop in powder charge could be from just a hotter lot of powder. You should drop a few grains and work up in case the brass is thicker. You will probably end up using your old powder charge but it never hurts to start low just to be safe. If it cant be Grown it has to be Mined! Devoted member of Newmont mining company Underground Mine rescue team. Carlin East,Deep Star ,Leeville,Deep Post ,Chukar and now Exodus Where next? Pete Bajo to train newbies on long hole stoping and proper blasting techniques. Back to Exodus mine again learning teaching and operating autonomous loaders in the underground. Bringing everyday life to most individuals 8' at a time! | |||
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You can Never just change a component and expect it to be the same as before. Nor can you assume that any load published anywhere will be safe in your rifle. So, given those rules, you must start over and work up another set of data, if you changed brands of brass cases. Most likely, if the new brass weighs the same, )and has the same internal capacity), it will react the same to any charge; but I am not telling you to do that. (I would though), But I still recommend you work up to a max load with the new brass. Not that I don't trust your ability to reload..... And why did a company change a load? Not from a different lot; they produce lots of canister powder by blending them to a spec; They don't change for a different lot. They changed because the original charge proved to be too hot for some rifles in the real world. However, if your rifle will take 71 grains, then by all means use that. Each rifle is different. | |||
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Thanks for reply. I'm not sure to drop from 71 older Barnes Reloading book (which I have been using for a long time) or use 69.9 that I got off their website a couple yrs ago. Both IMR 4831. The 71gr works well in both my 300 WM's. Zim 2006 Zim 2007 Namibia 2013 Brown Bear Togiak Nat'l Refuge Sep 2010 Argentina 2019 RSA 2023 Tanzania 2024 SCI Life Member USMC | |||
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Bottom line, the common thread is treat like I'm working up a new load (which I don't like to do) is necessary because of brass change. I'll get busy doing the workup and be done with it. Thanks
Zim 2006 Zim 2007 Namibia 2013 Brown Bear Togiak Nat'l Refuge Sep 2010 Argentina 2019 RSA 2023 Tanzania 2024 SCI Life Member USMC | |||
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Again, what I would do is weigh the new brass. If it weighs the same or lighter than your old brass, then I would load as usual. (that means the internal capacity is the same in both makes of brass) If it is heavier, I would work up a new load. I don't have time to work up loads either. I am not telling you to do that, because if you make a mistake, then you can't blame me. Advice here has to be worse case based. | |||
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I just weighed 10 used and 10 random new Lapua in tray. The Lapua (new) about 4.5 to 5.0 grams heavier. Guess it's new load workup time. Thanks for validating my concerns.
Zim 2006 Zim 2007 Namibia 2013 Brown Bear Togiak Nat'l Refuge Sep 2010 Argentina 2019 RSA 2023 Tanzania 2024 SCI Life Member USMC | |||
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I think you meant grains not grams. 4 to 5 grams would be 60 to 75 grains, which is highly unlikely. A difference of 4 to 5 grains isn't significant insofar as internal capacity. If your current load shows no signs of pressure and you get multiple loadings using both Win and RP brass, then changing over to Lapua brass will almost certainly not produce a dangerous load. I doubt you'll be able to tell any difference. Insofar as "book" recommendations, reloading guides use canister grade powders, which, although they are kept in a closer range than bulk powders, do vary from lot to lot. A later manual from the same publisher may list a different "maximum" (a poor term) load than a previous edition due to using powder from a lot which is slightly different in burning characteristics from the previous lot several years ago. By the same token, you can only depend on using exactly XX grains of a particular powder if that powder is of the same lot. If of a different lot then your results, including velocity, pressure, and even accuracy, may vary. When I happen to acquire the "same" powder but from more than one lot I will pour all of it together, thus the resulting blend will act the same until it is exhausted. On the other hand, if I used up one lot then switched to another there would be questions as to how the second lot compared to the first, and the answers could well be disappointing -- or at least require significant adjustment. | |||
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The reason Barnes books changed loads so often is because they changed their bullets over the years to produce less pressure. Their solid copper bullets act differently in the bore than standard bullets. Most manuals don't change over the years. I routinely use data from my 1960s era books, with powder produced recently. They blend the canister powders to allow this. One of my jobs was managing 105mm Tank Ammo production. Like reloading ammo, only I had to procure the components and make sure everything got to the LAP facility one time; orders were placed a year in advance of requirements. The propellant was blended to produce the required pressure and velocities; not something you want to vary since your computer wouldn't work if they did. Hitting the enemy tank at 2000 meters with the first shot is, important. Canister powder producers don't want their lots to vary for the same reason. Although different lots can vary slightly even after blending, but that is kept to a minimum. | |||
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I just got a RCBS auto powder measure and had a Lyman auto measurer for 20 yrs. I first weighed the brass with GN or grains and thought the GM or grams would be better for the brass. I assumed that it was grams. In the book it tells you GN for grains but I don't see confirmation of GM for grams.
Zim 2006 Zim 2007 Namibia 2013 Brown Bear Togiak Nat'l Refuge Sep 2010 Argentina 2019 RSA 2023 Tanzania 2024 SCI Life Member USMC | |||
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I did find that GM is grams. Using that the used WIN brass (10) weighed mostly from low 15.26 to 15.39 with one high at 15.85 grams. The new Lapua weighed (20) in the 15.90's except one that was 15.88 grams no touching 16.00. I have been shooting 71 grains in both rifles multiple reloads and no problems. Is this close enough or do you think I should do a workup?
Zim 2006 Zim 2007 Namibia 2013 Brown Bear Togiak Nat'l Refuge Sep 2010 Argentina 2019 RSA 2023 Tanzania 2024 SCI Life Member USMC | |||
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In any case, we don't use grams for reloading; that just adds confusion to what all us reloaders are used to using. Grains for everything; 7000 per pound. | |||
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I would take the simple weigh (pun intended) out. Load 1 round at 68.5, 69, 69.5, 70, 70.5, and 71 in the Lapua. Shoot them in that order. If you see pressure signs stop and back off about 4 grains and do an accuracy workup but always staying at least 2 grains under the pressure sign. If no pressure signs for the 71 grain load then use shoot a group with your other 71 grain loads and if your happy with the accuracy, your all done. It will take you all of 15 minutes to load those 6 rounds. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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That is what I'm going to do. As mentioned, I have my established loads and don't wonder with them. I'll admit that getting the Lapua brass is thicker, etc. changes the case means you should develop as new load. I appreciate the (safe) common sense recommendations from the posts. For top end results, there are no shortcuts.
Zim 2006 Zim 2007 Namibia 2013 Brown Bear Togiak Nat'l Refuge Sep 2010 Argentina 2019 RSA 2023 Tanzania 2024 SCI Life Member USMC | |||
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The Europeans use grams. It means that if you pull data from the internet, you had better know what you are doing. Yes, most of what we do in the US is in grains. It can be a bit iffy as US types tend to abbreviate grains as g, and the official nomenclature for IU system for grams is G. The values are quite different, so it really helps to have an understanding and realize 10 G weighs a heck of a lot more than 10 gr. I had a redneck buddy who asked me how the hell I could hit anything with a bunch of 24 G international trap loads... "what the hell, you got 2 pellets or what?" After explaining... "GD furriners!" | |||
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We, meaning me, aren't in Europe and Never use grams for anything related to reloading. And I don't know anyone who does. Even my VitaVouri book has loads listed in Grains. I see no reason for me to start now. It's a language we all speak. | |||
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I guess since I am the originator of this major controversy. I want to be real clear that when I asked the question and received good input. I have never weighed brass before and probably won't in future. So the reason (If I should give one) is weighing brass in grains seemed wrong for brass and grams was there for other than powder. I figgered the weight relationship between brass was the task. You just can't rely on Rednecks to give good data!
Zim 2006 Zim 2007 Namibia 2013 Brown Bear Togiak Nat'l Refuge Sep 2010 Argentina 2019 RSA 2023 Tanzania 2024 SCI Life Member USMC | |||
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So, the difference is 0.45 to 0.5 grams, not 4.5 to 5.0. That is 7 to 8 grains, which is not at all significant in a brass cartridge case as large as the .300 Win Mag. It would be extremely surprising if your regular, proven load acted any differently in the Lapua vs. WW or RP cases. | |||
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You may not be able to get 71grs of powder in those brand new cases. For one, they are heavier, so the internal volume will be smaller, and if they are anything like other belted magnum brass, the shoulder is not even close to being blown out where it will be after one firing. My Winchester brass starts off with the shoulder .040 back from where it will end up. I would fireform that brass on the first loading. It costs way too much to just cut loose with it and have a case head separation after 3 firings. | |||
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A little further analysis: Median weight of Winchester brass 15.325 grams Median weight of Lapua (estimate) 15.95 grams Difference .625 grams = 9.65 grains As Stonecreek said this is not material in a 300 Win Mag and unlikely to cause pressure issues. It is still prudent to do a work up especially for accuracy. I have seen this much variation on 30-06 class cases of the same brand. While not the norm, I have certainly seen ~ 5%-10% of the cases I have weighed in Hornady, Winchester in Remington brass very by 7-10 grains. Also note max load for the older Barnes Xs (no benefit of pressure grooves like the TTSX or TSX) was 72.0 grains for the 180. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I’ve had really good results with Lapua brass. I haven’t had to change charge weights between other brands of brass due to pressure issues. That said, I also haven’t changed between brass on the relatively few loads that are right up at the top of the scale. I have had minor changes in accuracy with switching brass, and increased SD for velocity with changes. VV’s web site does offer data in both grams and grains, so you do need to pay attention when pulling on line data. Some folks are now trying to list loads with powder measured to the 0.01 grain level. Not sure if they can reliably do that with our current equipment and powder technology, but I’ve seen it. | |||
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Measuring powder to the .01 grain level is a complete waste of time. Although I do know people who have nothing better to do anyway. As for using grams in reloading; just no. Not for me. NO need to change now; the US ain't going to use the Metric system except for liquor and pop. As for using 4831 in a 300 Win Mag; Ken Waters listed 77 grains; of course he didn't have Barnes bullets. Not to worry in this case. Please no one tell me they are going to measure 4831 to the nearest .01 grain. | |||
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I don't think the charges involved here with any 4831 could cause any problem other than perhaps accruacy and then not much...You can't get enough 4831 of any kind, IMR or Hodgens to damage a proper standard non belted case, and I tried to blow up a 95 and 98 mauser with a tamped in charge of H4831 and couldn't even tie up the bolt..???  Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Reloading Going from Winchester Brass to Lapua
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