I have a Ruger 9mm carbine and it is supposed to be able to shoot +P+ rounds. Is there any data specific to reloading for these carbines? And as far as powder measuring goes what to +P and +P+ actually refer to?

I take it you have a PC9. I had one a couple of years ago, until a friend talked me out of it. It will easily handle any +p+ round out there. As far as reloading goes, I had the most success with AA#5 and both 115 and 124 gr. bullets. I think accurate arms lists both standard loads as well as +p loads in their manual. Hope this helps.

I once loaded for a Marin Camp 9 mm. Got pressure signs, although I load so low ( only plinking and target loads ), I NEVER had a single pressure sign with all my other 9mm´s combined.

But the Marin would digest ALL ammo I had.

Jams up the brass, because of that tight chamber to "brake" cartridge at feeding cycle.

H

quote:

Originally posted by smeagolcheese:
I have a Ruger 9mm carbine and it is supposed to be able to shoot +P+ rounds. Is there any data specific to reloading for these carbines? And as far as powder measuring goes what to +P and +P+ actually refer to?

+P+ Ammo is for Police Sales or militay use. Federal Hydra-Shok ammo lists a 9mm luger +P+, 124 grain, at 1220 fps. Standard is 1120fps. +P+ refers to velocity and pressure, +P+ is faster then +P. I don't think there is reloading data for +P+ ammo, i could be wrong. When the militay first started using the Beretta 9mm handgun there was a problem when using +P+ ammo that was made to be fired in machine guns. The added pressure\velocity caused the Beretta slide to break, with the slide hitting the shooter in the face. A redesign fixed it.

I have a case of Hirtenberger 9mm +P+ ammo and it is wimpy.

SAAMI registered numbers for 9x19mm:

9mm Luger 35,000 psi average
Proof pressure 45,500 to 49,000 psi

9mm Luger +P 38,500 psi average
Proof pressure 50,050 to 52,500 psi

9mm Luger +P+ is not registered [read undefined]


I have RP 9mm brass in regular, +P, and +P+.
It costs the same, weighs the same, and looks the same when cross sectioned.


9mm chambers have typically no more that .030" of thin unsupported case wall cased by the feed ramp intrusion into the chamber:

Pistol ----- web thickness ---- case support ---- margin

Glock 19 9mm .190 .160 -.030
Kel-Tek P11 .190 .160 -.030
Star Firestar .165 .160 -.005
CZ52 9mm .145 .160 +.015

With most powders like Bullseye, Unique, Blue Dot, Power Pistol, H110, AA#9, Enforcer, LIL'GUN, 2400, and 800X not enough powder will fit in the case to make pressure problems.

But with AA#5, HS-6, and 3N37, there is enough [burn rate speed]x[density] product to pierce the primer or bulge the case.


With a Glock 19 and Kel-Tec P11 [the two worst] I have overloaded to the equivalent of +P++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The problem is not the case, but the recoil.

I made a 48 pound recoil spring assembly for the Glock. That is 3 concentric springs. The middle spring is left hand twist. Only a few people have the grip on a Glock slide to pull back 48 pounds. The slide moves forward so fast that the chamber comes up empty. Doubling up the magazine springs make the chamber get loaded, but only a few people have strong enough thumbs to load the magazine. The slide moving forward so fast means that the trigger will not reset. I put in a New York Trigger with stronger springs and the trigger resets. And that 48 pound recoils spring is tuned up just right for +P++++++ [ejects the case to land 5' away], which means the slide is still slamming the frame with +P++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ loads.

What is a +P++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ load?
Alliant says max load 147 gr XTP is 5.7 gr Power Pistol 1,095 fps 34,000 psi, 1.14"

My hardest kicking 9mm load is 158 gr XTP 11 gr Power Pistol 1.169".

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/Index.htm


What does it all mean?
9mm pistols and brass have the case support for hotter loads.
9mm pistols have the chamber wall thickness for hotter loads [except CZ52s]
9mm pistols do not have the [slide mass]x[recoil spring force] product to handle the increased recoil.
Risk averse large corporations would not sell +P+ if there were not large amounts of safety margin remaining.

What can you do?
1) Increase the mass of the moving parts in recoil.
2) Increase the spring force of the recoil spring assembly
3) Do not let your children do overload work ups in 9mm with AA#5, HS-6, or 3N37.

tnekkcc I have read your post.

I am VERY uncomfortable with several things you write or imply, or I simply don´t understand them. I don´t have THAT much experience. I stick to reloading manuals recommendations, and buy another, bigger bang gun, if I need more power. Call me conservative.

But some points:

Hirtenberg used up cases stamped +P+ with regular loads. I have some of them. HP loads are not so wimpy, even standard ones, except the 115 grs. The 124 grs is quite "usable".

You write which powders won´t >ever< give an overpressure load. There might be some truth there. The 9 mm case is small.

But BULLSEYE?!?!?!?!

You SURE?!?!?!

AND: Glocks in 9mm are ULTRASTRONG. They are no weakies in other calibers, either! The barrel thickness and steel quality are second to NONE! The problem is "out of battery firing" or .40 hot and heavy bullet loads. Go to Glocktalk and read the details. Get a stronger recoil spring, just for sure. But I suspect a little more "slop" in the rear area of the chamber in Glocks than in Bar Sto or other Match barrels! Don´t know if that means anything as long as the brass case holds up.

Just my .02, H

Arminius,
Most people have that trouble with me talking about the real limits, but AR is has many advanced handloaders.

When someone asks "What's the deal with +P+?", I am not going to tell him the stork brings the babies. I am going to tell him the real truth about the real limits.

I can get 44 mag loads to shoot in a glock 22 40S&W with chamber support at .180".

i.e. 15.5 gr 800X, 200 gr.

The problem with Glock 40 S&W is the chambers have too deep a feed ramp cut.

The barrels can be replaced with after market, or the feed ramps can be welded up and re cut.

You will never see risk averse corporations selling +P+ 40 S&W with all those barrels out there with the feed ramp cut .235" into the chamber.

One can handload 40 S&W +P+ for a Glock, if one has the chamber support.


I have a number of Glocks, and I know, the dumbest people you will ever meet like Glocks.
Go to GlockTalk and estimate the average IQ there.