Every reloading manual tells the reloader to stop adding powder once the maximum quantity of powder specified in the load recipe has been reached.

But what about velocity?

Say you've been hand loading for some time and your loads have been working very well.
Then then you finally acquire that long desired chronograph (personally I don't think the modern reloader should attempt reloading with out a chrono).
Shooting the old favorite hand loads across the new chrono you suddenly discover these your loads are exceeding the published velocity that the load recipe says your are suppose to get by 100 to 150 fps.

What is the proper thing to do now?

Redevelop the loads so it doesn't exceed published max velocity?

or

Be happy, you've got a fast gun that shoots published loads faster that expected.

From what I've read over the years about reloading, measuring case head expansion is both an art and science which makes it unreliable (the 7mmSTW story).
Traditional hot load indicators (weird report and recoil, stiff bolt lift, primer flatting and case head marks) I've read these indicators don't reliably appear until the hand load is well into proof load pressure range.

I ask this question because I am experiencing this extra velocity phenomenon with the two rifles l load for.

My current project is to tame the 22 Hornet.

It has been a lot of fun and a little frustrating (LIL'GUN blues I call it).

But I've moved on to try using Hodgdon's H110 with Hornady 35 gr Vmax and CCI500 primers in Win cases now.

I've noticed that as the powder (H110) quantity got to maximum, the velocity extreme spreads were greatly reduced, mission accomplished!

But velocity! Yikes, it's beyond what was expected by Hornady's and Hodgdon's published recipes for the max powder charge.
The velocity I got was not a sudden surprise, as all load levels produced higher velocity than the recipes showed.
The velocity didn't just jump to that value it just increased incrementally but not linearly through the load range (like a stair way with slightly upwardly sloping treads between steps).

So back to my question, published powder max or velocity max which one defines the proper stopping point?
Now if I was at max powder charge and my velocity was below recipe Vmax I would stop adding powder (never exceed published maximum right).
I realize max pressure does not mean max velocity, LIL'GUN powder in the Hornet teaches that lesson.

Take what I say with a grain or two of salt because I would never advocate exceeding published reloading specs. I also do not typically use max loads but prefer to stay slightly under depending on the application (if you need more velocity, use a cartridge with more case capacity is my philosophy). If I was in your situation of having a load exceed velocity specs but had no pressure signs, I would not be too concerned as long as you were at or under the max powder charge.
I had a sort of similar situation when working up a load with Barnes bullets for my 300RUM before Barnes had published any data for that cartridge. I cautiously worked up a load using data from the Hornady manual. When Barnes did publish data, the load that I had worked up was over their max in both powder charge and velocity. However, since my loads were not showing any signs of excessive pressure, I have not bothered to break down and reload the shells that I already have loaded. However, when I do load more, I will back them off a little.
Good luck and be safe.

Well, I have a chronograph but I have NEVER used it as a criteria for load workup during many years of reloading for different cartridges. When I get a load that is working well accuracy wise, when I have the time I chronograph it to satisfy my curiosity as to how fast the bullets are going. Knowing muzzle velocity is also useful to determine bullet drop at extended ranges.

I also have never measured case head expansion. I use a variety of other factors to determine if a load is safe. The chronograph is a pretty undependable means of determining if a load is safe or unsafe.

Most of the time my loads end up being somewhat below maximum published loads but on occasion have exceeded the published maximums.

quote:

Say you've been hand loading for some time and your loads have been working very well.
Then then you finally acquire that long desired chronograph (personally I don't think the modern reloader should attempt reloading with out a chrono).
Shooting the old favorite hand loads across the new chrono you suddenly discover these your loads are exceeding the published velocity that the load recipe says your are suppose to get by 100 to 150 fps.

How many of your favorite loads have you fired? Tens, hundreds, or thousands?

What is the average, what are the extreme spreads, and how many rounds did you fire over the screens?

How much data do you need before you are confident that the data is “truth”?

I have shot tens of thousands of target 308 loads. I have a pretty good feel for loads that are too hot. I know that when I push 168’s, 175’s, and 190’s at certain velocities I will have short case life. When those primer pockets expand quickly I know I have a hot load.

I believe, and it is simply a matter of faith, that if velocities exceed published data than pressures are also exceeding published data.

All of the measuring devices we have are crude. By the time we experience blown primers and sticking cases we have greatly exceeded “maximum” pressures.

With no sticking cases, no blown primers a 100 to 150 fps over may be a little hot. So, add some coal. If a half grain more results in sticking cases and blown primers than I would back off more than a half a grain.

Then take the loads and shoot them in various conditions. If you encounter any sticking cases or blown/pierced primers, cut the load some more.

Lets say your loads are 300 to 500 fps faster than published data. Either you have instrumentation error or you have one hell of a hot load that given the slightest perturbation will provide a fireworks show in your chamber.

I am regularly squadded next to people who shoot loads that exceed anything I would ever use. These folks are willing to replace bolts with cracked lugs, replace the rifle if need be, because they want that velocity.

I don't.

So what is your tolerance for risk?

To start with, I use a chrono as a simple guide in most cases. I generally throw all of my charges while sitting at the bench during development. It is simply far easier than loading and pulling charges which do not shoot like I want them to.

When I set out I pre measure the powder being used, from the start load up to the max load for that given bullet powder combo. Once this has been done and recorded, I simply tweak the load up 1/4 turn of the stem or so until I find a load that groups or until I have hit the max listing. I shoot all loads through the chrono in the process simply to have an idea of how it is comparing to book data, or looking for spikes in the velocity. While not scientific, it has and does provide addition information to the mix.

I have several rifles which will exceed published data with handloads as well as factory loads. If the box says 2950 for the load then I usually get +150fps higher from them. By the same token I also have a couple which on average drop about this same or more from what the published loads should get. This said there are so many variables with chambers, atmospheric conditions, components, and such that I usually do not worry about it.

Like was mentioned by the other fellow, if the chrono says 3000fps, then I use this to check my drops at various longer ranges. I have found that this is a far better guide to the loads performance than simply going by the FPS reading. I have multiple ballistic programs, and using them with the recorded velocity I get a decent accurate idea of what to expect when I stretch the load out. Plug in the current conditions, along with the load data and se how the two compare. I can then add or drop the velocity to fit the curve and set up a drop table that is accurate for that particular load in those conditions.

I have an old Ruger in .280 Rem that no matter what I shoot through it, the velocity is close to 300fps or more lower than it should be. Always has been and I do not see any logical reason why it would change. This said, when I started load development for it, I was pretty baffled by the max load only hitting around 2450 fps for a 139gr bullet, when it should have been hitting the mid 2800's. Before I did anything else, I consulted quite a few people including two gunsmiths who checked the rifle out for internal issues. Bottom line is nothing was wrong with it other than it is a slow slow barrel. I worked with it and using the measured case method, along with watching the case heads, primers, and velocity, I worked up the load very slowly, until it was where it should be with no issues on pressure that I saw. This involved adding close to three grains more powder than the listed max. While I do not use this, or recommend it, as practical advice, to this day I have not had any issues with this particular rifle or the loads it shoots loaded this way. In fact with both the 139gr and 162gr Hornady SPBT's, it is one of my most accurate rigs, and the cases have lasted through over 10 load cycles. This alone tells me I am still within a practical range with this particular load in this rifle.

For the most part when you handload your simply following in the footsteps of the powder or bullet manufacturer. The books are a guide, and your components and theirs will never match up exactly. You conditions and theirs will always vary as yours are not in a controlled environment, and your pressure reading equipment for the most part is archaic compared to theirs. Use the books as a guide and adhere to the loads listed. Most times your going to find that the best loads can be found withing a certain velocity parameter. Look over the listed loads in several manuals, and see what the best loads average and shoot for this range with powders that overall produce them.

Hope this helps

Work up from the starting load. Stop when you have your best accuracy.

In more than 39 years of reading handloading data manuals, I've never once seen a stop sign for velocity. But I do know what you're talking about with regards getting near MAX powder charges...in particular, my Colt/Sauer 25-06 just does not give tight groups until fed near book MAX loads. And I shoot almost everything over the Oehler Skyscreens.

I would only care that I was not achieving book velocities if I used the same firearm, brand of case, bullet, powder, primer, etc. Since I'm not, nor ever have used the identical parameters as the reloading manual, why should I care that my speeds don't match theirs, whether too fast or too slow? If my speed and accuracy meet my requirements, I couldn't care what results the laboratory guys got.

Do I go over the book MAX powder charge? Sometimes. A good case in point would be the venerable 30-'06 Springfield. If that same cartridge were introduced to SAAMI today, it would be listed just the same as the 270 Winchester (from whence it came) for max average pressure; 52,000CUP. But in deference to older rifles made prior to WWI, it is kept on the low side; 50,000CUP.

quote:

Work up from the starting load. Stop when you have your best accuracy.

Excellent advice as NOTHING else matters !. So many people get hung up on squeezing extra FPS or Proofing their Rifle's chamber every time they squeeze that trigger . Never ceases to amaze me how foolish people can be ; Do you place a brick on the throttle or drive with the petal too the metal 100% of the time ?. I run them so they last and when I need that full throttle, I'm pretty well assured it's there WHEN IT COUNTS !.

SInce you would be hard pressed to find the same data in 4 diff manuals, I use the manual as a guide & work up my loads. The rifle tells me what max is. I am looking for the best accuracy w/ the highest possible vel within safe pressures. I see no reason to shoot a 7remmag at 7-08 vel just to squeeze another 1/4MOA out of the load. I also don't want to red line the load & shoot 2MO, you have to find a compromise & sometimes switching powders gives you what you want. Obviously, one needs a chronograph & know how to read pressure signs.

Without reading the above posts. I stop at accuracy. I don't need a case full of powder or or a set velocity to be happy. Knowing that a gun is slower than the book or faster than the book is good (which book, whose barrel?), but knowing that I have a reliable accurate load is better. Knowing that my AR-15 is 200 fps faster than Sierras velocities gives me an idea of how much powder I need to hit a certain velocity. Knowing my group at 300 yards or if my load matches my wind read at 600 yards is more important than if the load is the same as Sierra's velocity. Using a chronograph confirms that my load matches an issued ammo velocity so my sight dope is the same with the same bullet and is consistant from batch to batch.

Maybe it's just me, but I have all my loads worked up with in the limits published, and happy with their performance. Now I need to crono them so I can map their trajectory. Most loading books will tell you what was used to come up with their data, a test barrel, actual rifle, and what make it was and barrel length. That being said how can you expect to match, or EXCEED their velocity numbers, when two identical rifles will not be the same with the same ammo. I'd say Max powder charge or below, where ever your best group is.

Neither powder nor velocity. Accuracy is my primary reason for reloading and let the velocity or powder chips fall as they need to. The difference between a 100 feet per second for a given round is really insignificant when you think about it. The animal or paper target will not notice it. Powder density may vary depending upon the powder selected but accuracy is measurable and usable.

I've worked up loads for two rifles where both started grouping tighter as maximum published loads were approached.
One of them shoots best with a max. load from data published in Lyman's 48th.
This is 2gr over the max. load in their 49th edition - a not insignificant amount.
Will I reduce that accurate load to one that is much less so?

Nope.

Much recent data appears to be "lawyer loads" designed to be safe in the hands of the less competent & conscientious.

I maybe wrong here but I always thought when a reloading manual gives you the barrel length. Then it supplies powder/bullet options, as those powder/bullet options approach certain velocities there has to be a safe pressure and a max pressure to obtain those velocities. When the manual tells you that it is at the max load it will be for their test barrel. Now if you have the same barrel length and are putting the same bullets out 200fps faster than their listed load you are probaly exceeding what is considered safe pressure. On the other hand if your barrell is 4 inches shorter than what they have listed you may never get their velocities. This is kind of where common sense and a chrony is kind of important, if you have the same barrel length and same powder bullet combination and you are getting within 100fps on either side of their listed max load you are probaly right on the money even if you are putting five grains more powder than the listed max. that would be allowing for slightly different chambers, barrel tolerences.... All things being the same pressure has to equal velocity.

Reloading manuals and reloading software are only REFERENCE materials and the data are only good for the rifle it was developed in.

The data should be use as a starting point to develop an optimum load for your specific needs...NOT as cast in stone. I don't know how many times I've chrono loads for people only to have them get hostile when the velocity didn't measure up to what some reloading manual said it should, and were so busy jumping around and fuming to understand the explanation of WHY it was so.

Pressure and accuracy are my guiding principals. If you bother to really read the manuals you can readily see that you can get approximately the same velocity from several powders BUT at different pressures, and velocity is an artifact of pressures and SEVERAL other factors including barrel length, bullet weight, bullet type and so forth.

Trying to pigeonhole components is a good way to get in to deep cagatha very quickly.

Usually, but not always, the highest accuracy comes at a point near the top of the pressure spectrum with a powder burn rate that fills the case 80-100% capacity and a bullet weight somewhere near the higher end in relation to the bore size. You will also get near the highest optimum velocity.

Every bore size has an optimum bullet weight, powder, velocity and pressure...this doesn't mean the highest pressure OR the highest velocity...it means the OPTIMUM balance of ALL the components.

I would bet 75% of all reloader don't have a clue about what I just said...we all seem to fall into some camp...either high velocity, lighter bullet or heavy bullet low velocity and we never really get the full benefits out of our shooters. Sad but true.

We get into that "my dog's bigger, better, meaner, uglier etc., than your dog" and miss out on all the other really good stuff trying to out do the other.

Reloading data today is developed using SAAMI specs which were developed to standardize and make safe ammo and weaponry. It might be lawyer weasel words but I'm sure glad it happen...there are just way to many people out there with guns that don't have a clue about being safe.

Without some kind of stopping point some idiot would keep packing in the powder and blow himself to he**...that wouldn't bother me a bit, mother nature used to take care of those...what hassles me is when he does this some political moron then makes new laws that causes ME grief.

It takes a long time and lots of experience and learning to understand at what point an "overloaded" cartridge is "safe or unsafe" in a specific gun and that knowledge is only good FOR ONE SPECIFIC WEAPON and not transferable to any other weapon of the same type or caliber. And even then some damphool will want to argue about it.

The object is to be safe...loading beyond SAAMI specs ISN'T safe for the average reloader.

Luck

quote:

Originally posted by FOOBAR:
Reloading manuals and reloading software are only REFERENCE materials and the data are only good for the rifle it was developed in.

The data should be use as a starting point to develop an optimum load for your specific needs...NOT as cast in stone. I don't know how many times I've chrono loads for people only to have them get hostile when the velocity didn't measure up to what some reloading manual said it should, and were so busy jumping around and fuming to understand the explanation of WHY it was so.

Pressure and accuracy are my guiding principals. If you bother to really read the manuals you can readily see that you can get approximately the same velocity from several powders BUT at different pressures, and velocity is an artifact of pressures and SEVERAL other factors including barrel length, bullet weight, bullet type and so forth.

Trying to pigeonhole components is a good way to get in to deep cagatha very quickly.

Usually, but not always, the highest accuracy comes at a point near the top of the pressure spectrum with a powder burn rate that fills the case 80-100% capacity and a bullet weight somewhere near the higher end in relation to the bore size. You will also get near the highest optimum velocity.

Every bore size has an optimum bullet weight, powder, velocity and pressure...this doesn't mean the highest pressure OR the highest velocity...it means the OPTIMUM balance of ALL the components.

I would bet 75% of all reloader don't have a clue about what I just said...we all seem to fall into some camp...either high velocity, lighter bullet or heavy bullet low velocity and we never really get the full benefits out of our shooters. Sad but true.

We get into that "my dog's bigger, better, meaner, uglier etc., than your dog" and miss out on all the other really good stuff trying to out do the other.

Reloading data today is developed using SAAMI specs which were developed to standardize and make safe ammo and weaponry. It might be lawyer weasel words but I'm sure glad it happen...there are just way to many people out there with guns that don't have a clue about being safe.

Without some kind of stopping point some idiot would keep packing in the powder and blow himself to he**...that wouldn't bother me a bit, mother nature used to take care of those...what hassles me is when he does this some political moron then makes new laws that causes ME grief.

It takes a long time and lots of experience and learning to understand at what point an "overloaded" cartridge is "safe or unsafe" in a specific gun and that knowledge is only good FOR ONE SPECIFIC WEAPON and not transferable to any other weapon of the same type or caliber. And even then some damphool will want to argue about it.

The object is to be safe...loading beyond SAAMI specs ISN'T safe for the average reloader.

Luck

I agree. When I go shooting with my buddies and I take my chronograph they all want to shoot their guns or their loads over it. I try to warn them that they will be disappointed with the readings but they all want to go head on.

Since every rifle is an entity unto it's own, a lad has to use judgment and patience to work up what he wants. The book is only a guide and use of skill in working up the loads. I have a load for the .223 that is wonderful in one rifle but too hot in another .223.

quote:

Originally posted by FredB:
I maybe wrong here but I always thought when a reloading manual gives you the barrel length. Then it supplies powder/bullet options, as those powder/bullet options approach certain velocities there has to be a safe pressure and a max pressure to obtain those velocities. When the manual tells you that it is at the max load it will be for their test barrel. Now if you have the same barrel length and are putting the same bullets out 200fps faster than their listed load you are probaly exceeding what is considered safe pressure. On the other hand if your barrell is 4 inches shorter than what they have listed you may never get their velocities. This is kind of where common sense and a chrony is kind of important, if you have the same barrel length and same powder bullet combination and you are getting within 100fps on either side of their listed max load you are probaly right on the money even if you are putting five grains more powder than the listed max. that would be allowing for slightly different chambers, barrel tolerences.... All things being the same pressure has to equal velocity.

To a point you are correct. Their barrel had the results they listed. There are differences in barrels and machining resulting in fast barrels and slow barrels. Loose/tight bore or chamber. Same pressure can produce different velocity based on bore diameter. The pressure produced in the chamber can be the same but the curve can change depending on the bullet in the bore. This is where a chrongraph and knowing your rifle come into play. Loading 5 grains over is probably a recipe for disaster and to me it would be an indication of a problem somewhere. Of course I don't think you could overload by 5 grains in a .223. In my case I know that every ammo I've shot in my AR is 200 FPS faster, Mil-spec, others loads, comparisson to book loads.

Call me different, but my main goal when reloading is to build cheaper, and more accurate ammo than I can buy. Achieving the cheaper ammo is almost a given, and most of the time I can pretty easily have more accurate ammo to shoot, while staying well within the published limits.

quote:

Originally posted by Sam:

quote:

Originally posted by FredB:
I maybe wrong here but I always thought when a reloading manual gives you the barrel length. Then it supplies powder/bullet options, as those powder/bullet options approach certain velocities there has to be a safe pressure and a max pressure to obtain those velocities. When the manual tells you that it is at the max load it will be for their test barrel. Now if you have the same barrel length and are putting the same bullets out 200fps faster than their listed load you are probaly exceeding what is considered safe pressure. On the other hand if your barrell is 4 inches shorter than what they have listed you may never get their velocities. This is kind of where common sense and a chrony is kind of important, if you have the same barrel length and same powder bullet combination and you are getting within 100fps on either side of their listed max load you are probaly right on the money even if you are putting five grains more powder than the listed max. that would be allowing for slightly different chambers, barrel tolerences.... All things being the same pressure has to equal velocity.

To a point you are correct. Their barrel had the results they listed. There are differences in barrels and machining resulting in fast barrels and slow barrels. Loose/tight bore or chamber. Same pressure can produce different velocity based on bore diameter. The pressure produced in the chamber can be the same but the curve can change depending on the bullet in the bore. This is where a chrongraph and knowing your rifle come into play. Loading 5 grains over is probably a recipe for disaster and to me it would be an indication of a problem somewhere. Of course I don't think you could overload by 5 grains in a .223. In my case I know that every ammo I've shot in my AR is 200 FPS faster, Mil-spec, others loads, comparisson to book loads.

You beat me to it! The books are based upon their results which they clearly state may vary slightly in other guns. Proceed with caution.

They are also limited to SAMI specified pressures and we all know that you can exceed them with little to no short term effects. Again, proceed with caution.

An example would be my personal 270 winchester using 150 grain Nosler Ballistic tips. The Nosler book stops at 55 grains of H4831 for 2905 fps at 91% capacity but my load is 56.5 grains for a velocity of 2975 fps and an estimated 94% capacity. It is over book by 1.5 grains but is not exhibiting any negative signs of pressure. It is possible that you have a gun that will start showing pressure signs before reaching top book as Sam stated.

quote:

Originally posted by Captain Finlander:

quote:

Originally posted by Sam:

quote:

Originally posted by FredB:
I maybe wrong here but I always thought when a reloading manual gives you the barrel length. Then it supplies powder/bullet options, as those powder/bullet options approach certain velocities there has to be a safe pressure and a max pressure to obtain those velocities. When the manual tells you that it is at the max load it will be for their test barrel. Now if you have the same barrel length and are putting the same bullets out 200fps faster than their listed load you are probaly exceeding what is considered safe pressure. On the other hand if your barrell is 4 inches shorter than what they have listed you may never get their velocities. This is kind of where common sense and a chrony is kind of important, if you have the same barrel length and same powder bullet combination and you are getting within 100fps on either side of their listed max load you are probaly right on the money even if you are putting five grains more powder than the listed max. that would be allowing for slightly different chambers, barrel tolerences.... All things being the same pressure has to equal velocity.

To a point you are correct. Their barrel had the results they listed. There are differences in barrels and machining resulting in fast barrels and slow barrels. Loose/tight bore or chamber. Same pressure can produce different velocity based on bore diameter. The pressure produced in the chamber can be the same but the curve can change depending on the bullet in the bore. This is where a chrongraph and knowing your rifle come into play. Loading 5 grains over is probably a recipe for disaster and to me it would be an indication of a problem somewhere. Of course I don't think you could overload by 5 grains in a .223. In my case I know that every ammo I've shot in my AR is 200 FPS faster, Mil-spec, others loads, comparisson to book loads.

You beat me to it! The books are based upon their results which they clearly state may vary slightly in other guns. Proceed with caution.

They are also limited to SAMI specified pressures and we all know that you can exceed them with little to no short term effects. Again, proceed with caution.

An example would be my personal 270 winchester using 150 grain Nosler Ballistic tips. The Nosler book stops at 55 grains of H4831 for 2905 fps at 91% capacity but my load is 56.5 grains for a velocity of 2975 fps and an estimated 94% capacity. It is over book by 1.5 grains but is not exhibiting any negative signs of pressure. It is possible that you have a gun that will start showing pressure signs before reaching top book as Sam stated.

You guys are also correct, but The manuals differ as well you take the Nosler manual and the Swift Manual both similar bullets on the 300 Ultra mag they differ for some loads up to 3.5 grains.So who is correct? Nosler uses the same data for all of there different bullets configurations in the same weight they dont list them for each bullet. I give you that five grains maybe a bit much but as the Captain said if you load 1.5 grains above and are showing no sign of pressure and your velocity is close to the manual max you are close to Sami specs. But depending on what manual you maybe 5 grains over max listed.In my opinion a chrony is one of the most important tool for telling you if you are approching max levels or are over, that being said you cannot over look other signs of excessive pressure.. flat primers, loose primer pockets.... Also the smaller the case eg 223 compared to the 300 ultramag there is no way in heck there would be the same 3.5 to 5 grain difference, but percentage wise it sure could be.

I personally back off to where velocity is in expected range. I have several rifles that will typically exceed book velocity with published loads and identical components and back off until I get close to expected.

Lou

quote:

Originally posted by FredB:
You guys are also correct, but The manuals differ as well you take the Nosler manual and the Swift Manual both similar bullets on the 300 Ultra mag they differ for some loads up to 3.5 grains.So who is correct? Nosler uses the same data for all of there different bullets configurations in the same weight they dont list them for each bullet. I give you that five grains maybe a bit much but as the Captain said if you load 1.5 grains above and are showing no sign of pressure and your velocity is close to the manual max you are close to Sami specs. But depending on what manual you maybe 5 grains over max listed.In my opinion a chrony is one of the most important tool for telling you if you are approching max levels or are over, that being said you cannot over look other signs of excessive pressure.. flat primers, loose primer pockets.... Also the smaller the case eg 223 compared to the 300 ultramag there is no way in heck there would be the same 3.5 to 5 grain difference, but percentage wise it sure could be.

Sierra does the same thing with grouping bullets. They are all "correct", they all used different barrels and sensors. For .223 Remmington my loads are over Sierra's load, at the same time they develope a .223 Remington load not a 5.56 load. My load is also shot by most Service Rifle shooters so I know I'm not out in left field somewhere. If I was loading more than everyone else I'd rethink it. I guess five grains isn't much for the bigger rounds but still something to think about. I've read a lot that the .22-250 hits pressure signs in some rifles before max.