During load developement for my 6.5 Gibbs, I had pressure problems before I should, The culprit was uneven neck thickness, after turning the necks to an even .011 thickness, they have subsided somewhat, Now my ?
on the initial neckdown from 270 to 264, I only end up with a false shoulder part of the way around the neck, Is this normal. As you can see in the accompanying pic, the third case from the left, the false shoulder is missing from the right side of the neck and the neck looks visibly crooked.
In your best opinion is it a die problem or something that normaly occurs when using a full length die to neck down. Do I need a bushing die? will a 6.5/06 AI bushing die work or do I need to have one reamed?
Thanks for sharing your knoledge
RR

I don`t play with wildcat cartridges and have only sized down 308 to 7-08 and have not seen your problem.
I would think though the cases your are sizeing are not even in thickness. The body of the case isn`t held by the die as the neck is sized and the case is moveing as the thinner brass side compresses while the thicker side resists.
JMO, I am sure some else has a better understanding then I.

Joe, I've tried rem. win, and nosler cases, mic out ok from factory but they end up .012 on one side, .015 on the other if I FF with cornmeal, .011 on one side and .013 on the other if I use bullets.
I've formed alot of cases on this press, 8mm RM to 7 STW, 50 AE basic to .458, 444 to 375 JDJ, 30-30 to 30 herrett, never had this problem before, I thinkin its a die problem but redding doesn't even wanna talk to me.
RR

Just playing devil's advocte here. I use Redding dies to size down 35Whelen brass to 338-06. I get an even shoulder all around. Ram aligment or a bad die is my guess. Have you tried necking up 25-06 brass?

Ridge

Just my opinion FWIW, but I don't think you're doing anything wrong and the cases are coming out as you would expect. The cases will come out of the chamber only as straight and as even as the chamber is.

If the necks are thicker on one side, fire-forming is not going to make them better. Only turning the necks after fore-forming will correct that.

One thing that I would do if it was me is to first expand the necks to a larger caliber, maybe 30 rather than 270. This should give you a false shoulder better than what you are getting.

You could try to find some brass that has more uniform necks to begin with but if you've already invested a lot of work in the ones you have, a simple neck turn to clean them should be OK. On a hunting round like the Gibbs I don't think you need to worry about getting them any closer than .001.

Ray

well my chamber is cut using a 270 case length reamer, my next brass purchase will be nosler 280 AI brass, that should help since the AI brass have the taper removed allready.
RR

IMHO what you need is a 6.5-06 (NO AI) sizing die and once fired .270 cases, not new, and Bardahl case lube.Lube inside of neck also.

Just for shits and giggles I just ran a .270 and a 7x57 into a 6.5x55 die 3/4 of the neck length and everything looked concentric. Initial sizing in the end item die looses case guidance. roger

RR,

If your neck wall thickness is uniform at .011" I don't think you should have a partial false shoulder. The crooked neck makes me think there is a mis-alignment in the die and press. I use a neck bushing die when I size down. I measure neck wall thickness then decide how many bushing increments I feel I need to size down. I use the Redding neck bushing sizing die and have several Redding bushings in various increments.

http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=1950102&mpage=1&key=�

Interesting situation. I went thru three 6.5-06 rifles before giving up on them (Every time I got one to the proper shooting stage someone wanted it more than I did) Anyway, I never encountered your problem with new or with once fired .270 brass (W-W, Norma, and Imperial), not did I have trouble with .25-06 brass to 6.5. Are your dies right, or what about your adjustment?

LLS

Bartsche has ALMOST the right answer. When you attempt to neck down the .270 brass in your Gibbs die the body of the case is completely unsupported and will naturally be pushed off to one side or the other when pressure is applied to the neck, resulting the off-center necks you are experiencing. Using a regular 6.5-06 die for the initial neck-down would seem to solve the problem, but it, too, will be somewhat loose in that it must be backed off to match the length of the much shorter Gibbs neck. What you really need is a custom die that supports the case shoulder, but only resizes the upper part of the neck. Such a die could be made from a regular 6.5-06 die by reaming the neck portion a little deeper.

Perhaps the best alternative would be to load regular 6.5-06 ammunition with the bullets seated out to engage the rifling, thus "headspacing" off of the rifling rather than any portion of the chamber. This would allow the case to be centered in the chamber and expand uniformly upon firing. This way you have no need of creating a "false" shoulder.

The reason you are having difficulties with the "cream of wheat" fireforming is similar to the difficulties of necking down with a die on which the body is oversized for the case: The CoW-filled case to be fireformed either starts out with a crooked neck from being resized in the oversized die, or if unresized it must be held in place by the gun's extractor. If the latter, the extractor cannot hold it centered and straight in the chamber, so upon firing it expands more one direction than the other.

Hope this helps.

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
Bartsche has ALMOST the right answer.

I'll settle for almost. roger

The sharp shoulder angle of the Gibbs sizer is causing the problem. Try sizing your brass in a 6.5-06 die or maybe a 6.5X55 die.
If nothing else is available, start the sizing down a little ways with a .270 die to get it centered.
If that does not work get a Lee 6.5X55 size die body and have someone with a lathe polish a long lead angle in it to get the neck to start squeezing down concentrically.

What you really need is a double acting sizing die. It would be a sizer that you run the body into, then with another press screwed on top of the die you push a bushing down over the neck.
No one makes such a beast, but I have wanted to for about 20 years.

Could you accomplish this with a body sizing die like Redding then a separate neck sizing die?

so would my cheapest best option be a 270 bushing sizer and a .285-.286 bushing?
RR

Unless you already have it I would just get a 6.5x55 die set. The Lee RGB series is about the least expensive. Under $11.00 on sale at Midway. roger

quote:

Originally posted by Ridge Runner:
so would my cheapest best option be a 270 bushing sizer and a .285-.286 bushing?
RR

The Redding bushings have very little chamfer so you would need to polish a chamfer on the entrance side of the bushing. A .308 Win bushing die is more useful since it can be used on about 2 dozen rounds if you are careful.

Roger is right about the Lee 6.5X55 Dies. They are cheap enough and they might work without the polishing modification. Though starting the neck down step with a .270 sizer might work also.

quote:

Though starting the neck down step with a .270 sizer might work also.

would a 270 sizer help if I'm using 270 brass to start with?

I can use my 6.5 gibbs die, and just after the neck makes contact with the die, back off and spin the case 180 degrees, the neck comes out pretty good but its a PITA!
Its sad, I can take 338 lapua down to 284, but necking down 270 win cases .013" is kickin my @$$!
RR

A 270 sizer will not help. Your issuelike others here have stated is the case is allowed to lean to one side because the 270 case is smaller in Dia than the Gibbs. You simply need a die to form the neck that is a close fit to the 270 case. If it were me I would simply buy a 6.5-06 sizer. Hornady makes a neck sizer for the 6.5-06 that Midway sells for around $23 http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/productview?s...id=275521&t=11082005. A full length would work as well.

I have no first hand experience with any of the bushing dies to say if they will hold the case in line or not. If they do that is an option as well.

Seems to me if you would turn the necks AFTER fireforming you would not have that problem. HUH.

Lyle

why has no one thought about lee collet dies
they only neck size without supporting any of the body of the case.
but even with your crooked necks with a false
shoulder if you fire form them with enough powder they will fit your chamber afterwards.

GSP7
I don't get what you call your fire formed case
it is not fire formed unless it looks like your
final formed case so what are you doing fire forming them 2 times. fire forming only takes one time to get a fininshed fire formed case.

quote:

Originally posted by okie2:
GSP7
I don't get what you call your fire formed case
it is not fire formed unless it looks like your
final formed case so what are you doing fire forming them 2 times. fire forming only takes one time to get a fininshed fire formed case.

IMHO it is not wise all the time to try to get complete fire formed cases in one shot. Often you should take into account how much brass you have to move.You do not want it to result from stretching in one place but from a uniform donation as much as possible. In my thinking you want to achieve a balooning out rather than a severe stretch along one direction and often mostly in one area. Case head separation could be the final drastic effect. roger

I have a 25-06AI and it will shoot factory loads
after fired they are completly formed I have not had one problem in 25 years with this cartridge or this rifle.
Read P. O. Ackley's books on fire forming.

quote:

Originally posted by okie2:
I have a 25-06AI and it will shoot factory loads
after fired they are completly formed I have not had one problem in 25 years with this cartridge or this rifle.
Read P. O. Ackley's books on fire forming.

I did the same with my 25-06 IMP but if you are interested in sheding new light on the subject look into the fire forming of the 219 Zipper in the improved chamber and the problem it caused. Than look at Ackley's 22/30-30 Improved and look how he solved the rupturing case problem.

I deal in forming my wildcats and whither you believe it or not some times it takes a little thought and process modification. Oh! Are you still on the same barrel after 25 years? roger

After 25 years it did shoot out the throat with
87 grain bullets of maxium loads. About 12,000 rounds.
but I got my money's worth on that barrel

quote:

Originally posted by okie2:
After 25 years it did shoot out the throat with
87 grain bullets of maxium loads. About 12,000 rounds.
but I got my money's worth on that barrel

Nothing wrong with that. If it gave you pleasure over that period of time you are indeed a fortunate fellow. roger