Just wondering, how close are factory loads to maximum? I would have thought they are pretty close to flat out. If thats the case why do I have to work up (proven) hand loads if when I get factory ammo I just go ahead and bang it through?

Also when working up hunting loads, what am I trying to actually get to? The highest velocity while remaining safe or the highest velocity while remaining accurate?

I always work up because there are way too many variables in componets, barrels, chambers, types of guns and weather conditions. I do not want part of the gun embedded in my face! I shoot handloads of very good to best accuracy at as close to factory ammo specs as possible.

It's not really possible to answer this for everyload. Most loads are mid range and fairly accurate for most guns.
If you look at the 10 mm it has been reduced at least once. Currently most factory loads are close to a .40 S&W. For other rounds like a .30-30 the factory round is loaded much lower than a handload for a Contender. On the other end the 500 S&W pretty much max's out it's loads.
If you are hand loading look for accuracy, you may find that you are under max. As you go up from there your group may open up. A lot of the accuracy is how the barrel vibrates and having the muzzle in the same spot in that vibration. As the velocity of the bullet changes the barrel harmonics change and that changes the muzzel position when the bullet leaves the barrel.

I've disassembled many factory rounds over the years to see what is in them..

surprisingly I have taken them apart, from the same manufacturer, with the same bullet weight.. but made at different times and the powder used was different...

so I think they load what powder they get a good deal on by the train load before each season starts...

they also get access to powders that are not available to us on the shelf..

also chronographing many factory loads, one can find that what they claim as MV is frequently optimistic.... after disassembling rounds, my conclusion has been they test a load and get a certain MV out of it.. then they reduce the load by a grain or two to reduce pressure further and box it up and ship it out the door..

I agree with everything except your last statement. Different barrel, different pressure, different velocity. That's part of working up a load.

factories are constantly monitoring the pressures of their ammo and alter the load to meet spec with every component or lot change. Weight the powder charge from two different lots of the same load by the same maker and you could find the powder charge to notably vary from one to the other.
You basically are doing the same thing when you work up a load in your rifle with the components you have on hand. You don`t have a lab full of equipment to tell you what the load is doing so it is recommended you start a bit low and work up.

So say my mate works up a load in his 308. He gets safe pressures as well as accuracy and good velocities. We are out shooting one day and I have the same cal rifle as him in which I am using factory ammo. He says 'here try a couple of these in your gun'. How is that different to me trying a different factory load that I haven't used before?

quote:

So say my mate works up a load in his 308. He gets safe pressures as well as accuracy and good velocities. We are out shooting one day and I have the same cal rifle as him in which I am using factory ammo. He says 'here try a couple of these in your gun'. How is that different to me trying a different factory load that I haven't used before?

That all depends on how much you trust your buddies reloading judgement vs the factories judgement.

If we're talking about both rifles being of modern manufacture, I doubt that it would be any sort of problem. I've got a load that safe in my Remington; it should be safe in your Winchester. However, if someone gave me a formula for a load that was safe in his Winchester, I'd still do some work up on it. If for no other reason than to find the exact same accuracy node in two rifles would be unusual.
Factory ammo is often rather optimistic about their velocity. And if you think it's bad now, you should read some of the velocities quoted back before every kid on the block had a Chrony.
when you work up a "roll your own", you are customizing the ammo for your rifle. You are bettering the velocity (except for some of the old time Weatherby loads) and the accuracy by choosing the best powder/components for your rifle. That accuracy node stuff.
As posted, ammo makers buy their powder by the ton. They call up the powder making people and say send me a ton of powder kinda like 4895. When the powder shows up, the guys in the white coats takes some and runs PRESSURE test on it. When they determine its burn rate, they compute how much powder is needed to produce xxx pressure which, according to their slide rule, will produce xxx velocity.
Factory ammo, at least the big boys, is loaded to pressure not by testing for velocity.

IMO, within reason, accuracy trumps velocity every time.

quote:

Originally posted by IEATROOS:
So say my mate works up a load in his 308. He gets safe pressures as well as accuracy and good velocities. We are out shooting one day and I have the same cal rifle as him in which I am using factory ammo. He says 'here try a couple of these in your gun'. How is that different to me trying a different factory load that I haven't used before?

That depends a little on the rifles and loads. If he has a bolt gun and you have a gas operated semi-auto it might be too hot for yours. The M118LR round was made for bolt action Remington 700's but was too hot for an M14. Now if his load is not over max on a load chart it should be safe, but the powder may not be good for a semi auto. Also as indicated your barrel harmonic may be different enough to get lousy accuracy out of his tack driving load. Winchester and Hornady both sell "safe" ammunition that is labeled as not for use in semi auto rifles.

quote:

So say my mate works up a load in his 308. He gets safe pressures as well as accuracy and good velocities. We are out shooting one day and I have the same cal rifle as him in which I am using factory ammo. He says 'here try a couple of these in your gun'. How is that different to me trying a different factory load that I haven't used before?

First, factories make ammunition that falls within a range that meets SAAMI specifications that are developed to ensure safe operation of the ammunition in all firearms of that caliber that are in safe operating condition. Accordingly, there is a fairly significant saftey margin in factory ammunition that is not necessarily there in handloads!

So, with the above in mind,---if your mate worked up a mild to moderate load for HIS rifle,you would likely be able to safely use it in yours, always assuming it will fit in your gun properly. On the other hand---if he developed a maximum load for his rifle and it so happens that his chamber is a bit on the loose side and it turns out your rifle has a tight (close to SAMMI minimum) chamber, you might just have a big problem using his loads in your gun!

If you and your mate shoot/hunt together most of the time it would be prudent for you to work together to build a load that will be adequate for both guns.

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Originally posted by wasbeeman:
IMO, within reason, accuracy trumps velocity every time.

100% agree in a safe load.

quote:

Originally posted by R D McMillan:
So, with the above in mind,---if your mate worked up a mild to moderate load for HIS rifle,you would likely be able to safely use it in yours, always assuming it will fit in your gun properly. On the other hand---if he developed a maximum load for his rifle and it so happens that his chamber is a bit on the loose side and it turns out your rifle has a tight (close to SAMMI minimum) chamber, you might just have a big problem using his loads in your gun!

Ok thanks that makes sense. And I suppose also if he seats his bullets .005" off the lands and in my rifle it happens to be hard up against the lands it would also create nasty problems.

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Ok thanks that makes sense. And I suppose also if he seats his bullets .005" off the lands and in my rifle it happens to be hard up against the lands it would also create nasty problems.

That's always a possibility. As an example, Winchester is known for long throats, where a Tikka, or Sako in the same caliber is likey to have a shorter throat. I switch ammo between rifles on a fairly regular basis, but I only do it with known rifles, and known loads, and usually only with modern bolt action rifles. If I have any reason at all to question the saftey, I back off and work up.

The factories use a powder refered to as Green Powder. They buy (lots), quantities, of powder that produce specific pressures and velocities which they have found, thru TESTING, to produce the specifications they desire for a particular cartridge. Many , if not most, factory cartridges are not loaded with the canister powders we use and buy over the counter.

The reason to work up a load, IMO, is to acheive the greatest level of accuracy that your rifle can produce. If you want it to go bang, load the factory duplication loads, some manuals suggest. Still it is best to test a few of these "factory duplication" loads, to make sure they chamber and function properly, and are accurate enough to hit, whatever it is you wish to shoot at.

Jerry

quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Eden:
The reason to work up a load, IMO, is to acheive the greatest level of accuracy that your rifle can produce.

Am I correct to assume that the max load is rarely the most accurate?

Generally speaking that's true, but it depends on the rifle more than the load.

I agree with Sam, it's more the particular rifle, than the max charge of powder. There is however, another dynamic here: the relative burning rate of the powder, fast/slow, and how much of the case volume is used, affect accuracy, perhaps more than anything, maybe even the rifle. I have found, and this is in general, that I will find a very accurate load at the bottom end of the recommended loading data, and as I increase the powder charge, the groups wil "open up", as the charge of powder increases, most times the groups close up, untill I find the sweet spot. The sweet spot, in my experience is close to the top of the loads listed. Now a lot of this depends on the cartridge, and how much powder it holds, but I believe you'll find it pretty right on. Also, I use the powder data guides as a reference, from there I use a cronograph and pressure testing.

Jerry

quote:

I agree with Sam, it's more the particular rifle, than the max charge of powder. There is however, another dynamic here: the relative burning rate of the powder, fast/slow, and how much of the case volume is used, affect accuracy, perhaps more than anything, maybe even the rifle. I have found, and this is in general, that I will find a very accurate load at the bottom end of the recommended loading data, and as I increase the powder charge, the groups wil "open up", as the charge of powder increases, most times the groups close up, untill I find the sweet spot. The sweet spot, in my experience is close to the top of the loads listed. Now a lot of this depends on the cartridge, and how much powder it holds, but I believe you'll find it pretty right on. Also, I use the powder data guides as a reference, from there I use a cronograph and pressure testing.

Jerry

+1 for Jerry.

As Jerry mentioned, it's very common to find 2 accuracy loads, one close to the min, one close to the max. You can load the Minimum load for the wife and kids, so you don't beat them up too much, and the max load for yourself.

You just have to test the loads. Indep ammunition in 7.5 Swiss was positively anemic compared to Swiss ball.


170 grain FMJBT Indep Factory 1 Dec 01 T = 52 ° F

Ave Vel = 2155
Std Dev = 47
ES = 132
Low = 2104
High = 2236
N= 4

AP11 Swiss Ball headstamp DA 78 24 Mar 04 T = 70 ° F

Ave Vel = 2565
Std Dev = 11
ES = 23
Low = 2551
High = 2574
N =4

SInce factory loads are put together w/ no canister powders, for the most part, they can achieve a vel window w/ safer pressures than you can w/ certain powders. Also most factory ammo is NOT loaded to max just because of the variations in all the rifles out there. So what is safe in my rifle may not be in yours. Working up loads is just prudent for any handloader.

Almost every Hirtenberger - from Austria - load I have fired was overloaded!

Regardless of caliber.

Handloading is not to get the maximum velocity from a load.

It is to get what you actually want; speed, accuracy, suitability for the task.

It is also a very enjoyable hobby, and can save you lots of money.

And if you shoot a wildcat, there is no alternative but to roll your own.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:


It is to get what you actually want; speed, accuracy, suitability for the task.

It is also a very enjoyable hobby, and can save you lots of money.

That pretty much spells it out.

quote:

Originally posted by IEATROOS:
Also when working up hunting loads, what am I trying to actually get to? The highest velocity while remaining safe or the highest velocity while remaining accurate?

Bof'um!

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by IEATROOS:
Also when working up hunting loads, what am I trying to actually get to? The highest velocity while remaining safe or the highest velocity while remaining accurate?

Bof'um!

Mega dittos!