I was doin some browseing the other day and i came across this and found it preatty intresting.. I would like to here you thoughts on this..

B.C. vs. B.S.? What does that mean? The answer is extremely simple, but the rationale is extremely complex.

B.C. is Ballistic Coefficient, and naturally, B.S. is Bull Shit.

We all know what bull shit is, and if some of you out there don't, I suggest that you go ask your dads ... But how many of us know what a ballistic coefficient is? Not too many! Some reloaders/shooters feel that the B.C. of a bullet was handed down by God, to Moses, but they were lost when the first set of tablets were thrown to the ground in anger.

Let's describe what the B.C. really means. It is a number, assigned to a hypothetical perfect bullet, under ideal and constant atmospheric conditions, at a constant velocity. There are three major considerations that we MUST look at here. "Perfect", "Ideal", "Constant". None of these apply to any man or environment know to man, or at least inhabited by man.

First, what is the "perfect" bullet? It is a bullet which is three-calibers long, and ogival head of two-calibers radius, and of homogenous construction with equal and concentricity of the mass around the center from tip to butt. Got that? Name one bullet that meets those specifications!

This bullet must be fired from a source that will establish and guarantee that a constant velocity of that bullet will remain from the moment of launch until the moment of impact. Got that? Name one projectile that meets that requirement!

In addition, all this MUST take place at exactly sea level, at a temperature or 59-degrees F., 29.58-inches of mercury barometric pressure and 78% humidity. Oh, and absolutely no movement of the air... Name one place on earth that has those qualifications, 24-hours-per-day, 7-days-per-week, 52-weeks-per-year... Can't, can ya!

Now if we could find that "perfect" bullet, and launch it and maintain it at the "constant" velocity, under the "ideal" conditions, we would be able to assign a ballistic coefficient of 1.000 to that bullet. That's a hell of a lot of work to get a rating of "1"! (Hell, my first wife was a "9", and my second wife was a "6"!)

Now, what does all this mean in our everyday world of reloading and hunting? It means that the B.C. of a bullet means absolutely NOTHING! That's right, not a damn thing. (Excuse my language, but I really get upset when I discuss the B.C. of a bullet.)

All bullet manufacturers (other than Sierra) assign a B.C. rating to each and every one of their bullets under the "ideal" or "standard" conditions I have listed above. How do they derive their numbers? No, they don't travel to the moon, they do it on computers. Someone, somewhere computed how long it would take the bullet with the B.C. of "1" to travel a specified distance. For simplicity's sake, let's say it took one second. Then, they fired one of their less than ideal bullets the same distance and measured the amount of time it took that bullet to travel that distance. Let's say it took 1.3 seconds. That bullet would then rate a B.C. of "0.768". There are NO bullets currently available to the general shooting public that have a B.C. higher than .768! Bullets available to modern man have "rated" B.C.s of between .120 and .768. (And please remember, this value is only valid at a specific initial velocity.) Sierra saw the light a few years ago, and now assign three different "approximate" B.C.s to each of their bullets. Call them "high velocity", "standard velocity" and "low velocity". They found some bullets behaved better at lower velocities than at higher velocities...thus they have a higher B.C. at lower velocity (contrary to what many "experts" will try to tell you), and some exhibit just the opposite. And yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus ... some bullets perform better at medium velocities!

So what does this really mean? Let's say you live in Florida. You are enjoying your 90-degree temperatures, your 90% humidity, and your gentle gulf breeze. You decide to work-up a new load for your favorite .30-06. As remarkable as it may sound, your first load prints groups of 5 shots at 200 yards of less than 1 inch! You are happier than a pig is shit!

That fall you go to Colorado to hunt mule deer. You take your favorite .30-06, and those great new loads, with you. You are high in the mountains, you spot a great 18-pointer at around 400 yards, with a body weight of at least 500 pounds, squeeze off a shot, and miss the sucker by almost 5 feet ... but instead hit a scrawny little 95 pound doe with a severe case of hair-loss! You get so pissed you take a second shot, knowing that you are limited to only one kill, but what the hell, no one saw you ... and the second shot hits the game warden that was standing around 3 feet from the poor old doe! (Unfortunately you didn't kill the warden...so off to court and jail you go...)

How could that have happened? Here's an explanation, as best as I can do.

First of all, the 180 grain bullet you selected had a factory rated B.C. of 0.431 (at the standard conditions). Well you tested the loads at 90 degrees instead of 59 degrees, he humidity was around 90% instead of 78%, barometric pressure that day was around 29.53" Hg. All these factors increased that factory rating of 0.431 to a little over 0.529. A difference of almost 25%!

Oh, we ain't even near being done yet!

So you take your loads, with their B.C. of 0.529 up to the mountains. The temperature is now 20 below zero, you are at 5,000 feet, and the humidity is only 35%. That Florida bullet with a B.C. of 0.529 now rates around a stinking 0.282. Impressed? You should be!

Do you wanna know why you missed? That magic number of 0.529 is now down to 0.282, and we haven't finished yet! Were you aware that combustibles behave differently at different temperatures? That bullet launched at, let's say, 2,600 fps in Florida is now only leaving the barrel at around 2,400 fps! And remember you fired your groups in a very gentle gulf breeze, you are now firing those bullets across 400 yards of cross winds of up to 30 mph! (And you were probably shooting either uphill or downhill.)

How much of this miss is due to the B.C.? Very Little! Your .30-06, when sighted in while you were in Florida dropped 50 inches at 400 yards, when launched at 2,600 fps. Now that you are here in Colorado, the bullet is leaving the barrel at only 2,400 fps, it will drop 60 inches over the same 400 yards. The gulf breeze you enjoyed in Florida had no effect on accuracy, however the 30 mph crosswinds up in the Colorado mountains will cause that bullet to deflect almost 48 inches. So now your bullet is 4 feet to the side of your target, and at least 1 foot lower than you expected! That's exactly where the doe was standing! And the warden? Well, he was hiding next to a tree watching you, a few feet from the doe, and in your anger and haste, you pulled the crosshairs of your $39 scope just a tad to the right on your second shot! Well, the thick cross hairs of that cheap scope cover around 12 inches at 400 yards! You moved it two widths of the cross hair, and the warden caught that 180 grainer! So how come the doe died and the warden didn't? The doe weighed around 95 pounds, the warden 275. The doe had one layer of skin to protect her, the warden had his down jacket, wool liner, felt shirt, insulated underwear, and his beer-gut to protect him.

When you get out of jail the first thing you do is take your .30-06 to a range in Colorado. To your amazement, at 200 yards, 5 shots grouped around 2 inches ... that's how much the difference in B.C. actually made ... a stinking 1 inch at 200 yards! And that was for a B.C. difference of 50%! (And I have been witness to many a heated argument and discussion of B.C.s that varied as little as 1%!!!

The answer to the question is that B.C. is B.S.! If you want your rifle to shoot where you point it, test your loads in as near the same environment as where you will be hunting, under the same conditions, at the same range. (I sight all mine in at 300 yards, and yes, I do go out when it is 20 below zero and do a test target every year, with every rifle, before hunting season.)

6.5 Bandit

Whoever wrote that piece needs to study up on ballistics a bit.

In his little example, none of the effects listed are related to B.C.

1) Reduction of velocity does not measurably change the BC. It changes the speed and trajectory of the bullet, but the BC of the bullet is fine.

2) Altitude doesn't change the BC of the bullet. The BC of a bullet tells us only one thing: how it compares to a "standard" projectile (the description of which is wrong in the article, too). In air that is less dense (higher altitude), the G1 projectile would fly faster, and the bullet flies faster, as well. Again, the BC stays correct. Oh, and at higher altitude, BC "improves".

3) Humidity doesn't effect BC either, see 2). Dryer air is denser, but it does not change the BC (though, of course, it does change the trajectory.

Lastly, all of the effects can be easily predicted, and compensated for, using even the simplest ballistic software. In order to do that, you have understand what a BC is, however.

The only thing I agree with in the article is that one should practice and establish trajectories at the distances you will shoot. JMO, Dutch.

The bottom line is:
Two bullets of the same weight and caliber, similar construction and launched at the same speed. One bullet has a better BC value than the other. The higher BC number will result in a flatter trajectory, less wind drift and shorter time of flight than the lower BC bullet, regardless of whether you are at the North Pole, on top of Everest, on Miami Beach or in the Sahara. This means you are more likely to hit where you aimed, and the bullet will arrive with more momentum and energy than the lower BC bullet.

Message deleted...

[ 03-22-2003, 21:28: Message edited by: ricciardelli ]

Seen this discussion before. What changed from Miami to Colorado was the air density. You can compensate by changing the BC or by (more correctly) changing the conditions (temp, press, humidity). Many ballistic calculators take the initial conditions into account, many don't. Either way it's a computer calculation made from theoretical and empirical data. (that's a polite way of saying it's an educated guess) The only way to know how your particular rifle and ammo combination is going to handle the current conditions is to check it by firing in those conditions. I sight in every time I go hunting and if conditions change significantly I will fire a test round (after all it's only the first one out of the tube that counts) to make sure point of impact has not changed. And the change in density (or a change in BC) should change the point of impact not the group size. The question is what's significant? Miami in the summer to Colorado in January is significant. 20 degrees in my experience is not (never seen 30% humidity change have a lot of effect either). Start combining things and I start worrying about long shots. If I sight in on a bright sunny low humidity 60 degree day, and it's 15 degrees and snowing I'm going to make sure I'm still hitting where I think I'm aiming.
Helicopter Bill

[ 03-22-2003, 01:19: Message edited by: Helicopter Bill ]

I was in the BS camp until I tried the RN bullets I was using in my 7x57 at 200yards. The drop was horrific and explained a miss that I had put down to a flinch.

I don't get excited about small differences but .239 vs .529 does make a big difference if you are shooting at a small vital area and cannot afford to zero much more than an inch high at 100yds.

Good Grief I thought we'd settled that one a month ago. http://www.serveroptions.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=007546

Adjusting the BC for altitude, temperature and humidity is throughly discussed in Section 5.1 of Sierra #4, and you don't need a Ph.D. in calculus to do the math.

I really can't understand Mr. Ricciardelli's objection to adjusting the BC, since in his example, he adjusts the BC of his bullet from the standard .481 to .529 for sighting in down in Florida, and to .282 up in the mountains, himself. However, his BC for the mountains is incorrect, since the increase in altitude almost cancels the decrease in temperature, and it appears he inverted his altitude correction.

Bye
Jack

The bullet used was never stated to be perfect, just a standard. It was also 1" in diameter.
The bullet was fired AT sea level (on the beach in fact), and the "standard conditions" are what the conditions were during the origional tests. Corrections for local conditions are easy to calculate.
The flight time to measured distance results were recorded so that future tests with different designs could be compaired to the standard.
Hence if the "standard" took 10 seconds to go 1000 yards, a bullet that takes 20 seconds (with the same MV) to go 1000yd has a BC of .500, and one that takes 5 seconds (same MV) has a BC of 2.
To calculate the rate that the projectial slows at (time of flight and MV are knowns) is another way of obtaining BC. Simply compare to the origional data.
It's not rocket science.

"It is a bullet which is three-calibers long, and ogival head of two-calibers radius, and of homogenous construction with equal and concentricity of the mass around the center from tip to butt. Got that? Name one bullet that meets those specifications!"

.270 80 grain GS Custom HV

Your right, 6.5. But I disagree with your example alot. Why ? Because I've done just what you describe. I've sighted in at close to "standard conditions", worked out a range table on my computer, and taken it to the high, dry desert mountains. Several times. My rifles have shot very close to where I thought they would under standard conditions based on my computer generated range table. All the way out to 600 yds.
The real problem is selecting an good "average BC", and, even more important, having good range information, and making a good wind call. Shooting up and down hill would be a modifying effect that one would have to note. There are simply formulas for these conditions.
The real trap for the hunter is choosing a high BC bullet over a better performing big game bullet. E

A 180 Sierra RN will drift in the wind more than twice as much! as a 180 SPBT when launched at the same velocity at all ranges, at any temperature, at any altitude.

Why? Because of its lower BC. And only because of its lower BC.

And that's no BS.

[ 03-23-2003, 02:48: Message edited by: Jon A ]

Thanks Tailgunner. I edited it to avoid confusion.

I should type more slowly in the future....

I've seen some bullet manufacturers give a ballistic coefficient for different speeds - 2000, 2500, 3000fps. One gunwriter said that bullet manufacturers pick the ballistic coefficient out of a hat, because it depends on velocity, it's calculated for a specific constant velocity, and no bullet travels at a constant velocity. I like the idea of giving the BC's for different velocities, then the reloader can average out the BC according to their guns velocity range.

Also, I'd like to add that the less the BC of a bullet, the more the BC will change given different velocities. The following BC's are taken from the winchester site:

30-06 180g partition .449
300mag 180g partition .458 .009 difference

30-06 180g failsafe .371
300mag 180g failsafe .411 .040 difference

The less aerodynamic the bullet is, the more the BC will vary with velocity. That's why BC numbers are just a reference. The nosler site has a BC of .391 for the 180g failsafe. Therefore, we hope it was derived from averaging out from a starting speed of 2800fps.

Very interesting rhetoric but, I may as well add some salt to the pot, but very little. My iterpretation of BC in simple terms one can understand equals how well any given bullet flies through the air. All the rest is conjecture and the given point of view of the author doing the article.

Many outisde factors determine how any given bullet reacts as it passes through the air. The higher the computed actual BC of any given bullet the better that bullet will slip thought the air.

I use BC and a good ballistics calculator (www.eskimo.com/~jbm/ballistics/ballistics.html that accounts for LOTS of environmental variables) to give me an IDEA of what the bullet will do (energy/trajectory out to expected hunting ranges). I then confirm @ that altitude at the longest range possible, then recalculate my drop/wind deflection charts based on an "adjusted" BC which better matches my field results.

Deke.

In the end, it is important to realize that BC is a ratio: how well does this bullet do compared to the G1 projectile.

It is, for practical purposes, constant across conditions.

It just happens that the G1 projectile will fly faster in less dense atmospheres, same as a hunting bullet! They both change, in about the same amount, in the same direction. Thus BC stays the same, even though trajectory changes.

Now that we have figured this one out, let's tackle foot-pounds of energy...... Dutch.