No I don't mean that cute girl at High School.
That was never going to happen.

So I've been buying Lee dies and things to try.
Tests have been short, but,

Just tried some collet dies, 6 shots didn't go as accurate as the same loads made with a Hornady FLS die (PFLS).

Same loads were done with a Lee seating die plus a medium to full Lee factory crimp.
That didn't help either, and I had tried the F.Crimp couple years ago, as against no crimp.

The no crimp won then also.
The recent test of only 6 each was Hornady 7/8"
Lee 1 1/2" at 100 yd.

Also bought a Lee .458WM die set. The FLS die shaved brass off the case (badly) and the seater die was nearly off the threads which looked like alimunium, & looked about to strip.

So I took the seperate seater piston out and just used the top cap. Later changed to RCBS.

My Lee trimming tools cut way too short for me, like about 15/17 thou. under max. Glued the measuring pin out a bit and now it (only) cuts to 1.750 (-10thou).

The hand press seems to work well but the primer seater attachment doesn't seat 'em fully.
(But then I've never had a press that did.)

The Lee hand primer tools work very well, both with and without the magazine disk.
I won't be throwing them out.

Not impressed, over all.

I suppose if we all liked the same things there would only be one brand of loading tools, bullets, powders, etc. And I doubt anyone really cares which brands I don't like.

JAL, you need to try one more Lee thing...their money back warranty. Let us know how you like that.

I have never used any of Lee dies on rifle rounds but I do like the FCD for handgun rounds.

When I bought the Lee hand primer it took two additonal shippments from Lee to make it work.

That is about all of their stuff that I will probably ever buy.
Crying shame too because they have good designs, just under manufactured it seems.

I use a fair number of Lee dies. The one bad feature for me is when a decapping pin breaks there is no easy imediate fix. The factory, however, will send you a complete replacement expander at no charge. roger

I had a conversation yesterday with a fellow AR member about "upgrading" my dies from Lee to RCBS. Honestly though, I haven't had any problems, but I really like the one set of RCBS that I have better.

I have Lee, RCBS, Forester, Hdy, and Pacific Durachrome Dies, never had a problem with any of them. I actually like their collet dies and they are my preferred method of neck sizing. The collet dies give less run-out than many of the other dies I have.

Good luck

Reloader

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Sullivan:
I had a conversation yesterday with a fellow AR member about "upgrading" my dies from Lee to RCBS.

If you want to upgrade, why stop at RCBS? Forster and Redding make the better dies.

I doubt that most people really understand the function of Lee products in the marketplace. The following dissertation is from a posting of mine on another forum, which I'll repeat here.

In the marketing world, it has been recognized that there are a finite number of strategies. One is that of the low-cost producer. Every aspect of the business must be guided toward minimal cost to the consumer. Production, materials, labor, design and service must all be compromised to varying extents to satisfy that customer. The occasional saving grace comes with innovation in design and production efficiency/economy. Characteristic of the low-cost strategy is that there is only one producer that succeeds; the low margin makes it unprofitable for all but the most cost efficient to survive. Richard Lee dominates in the reloading market, and no others can gain entry to the price conscious segment's wallets as long as he maintains minimal profit.

Lee has succeeded through design with three products. His Collet Die and Perfect Powder Measure are duplicated by no others. His AutoPrime's basic design is copied by K&M and Sinclair, both producers of upscale products that don't compete in Lee's market. If Lee were to upgrade his AutoPrime, Collet Die and PPM, accompanied by a commensurate price increase, he would lose his own segment.

The compromises in Lee's products are acceptable only to those who find his price attractive, with the exception of the three designs discussed. Those looking for service and robust products keep the other manufacturers in business.

I have TWO Lee Auto prime tools, one for small primers one for large primers.

I also have TWO Lee AutoPrime-II tools, again, once for large primers one for small.

The Lee AutoPrime-II DOES "Fully seat" primers because the seating drpth is adjustable

Either through physically rotating the entire unit and screwing it down and accepting where the unit places the primer tray OR shoterning the driving pin that goes into the press ram to "adjust" where the unit needs to be "Clocked"
to put the priming tray to the rear.

Another advantage of having two complete units is that you can then have a second loaded priming tray ready to go and with some common sense and a bit of dexterity you can swap on a fully loaded tray...

I have a few lee die sets, but most of my dies are RCBS
I have three lee factory crimp dies.... 30-30win, 35rem and 45-70... see a common thread there? all three are tube magazine cartridges...

44Mag and 357 are on my "to buy" list.

the last lee tool I really like? their universal decapping die.

I have actually inadvertantly "deprimed" quite a few BERDAN capped foreign brass and have yet to break a decapping pin.... and I've had that die since they introduced it.

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I am a big fan of the Lee Collet Die combined with the Redding body die. With this combo my PFL sized rounds produce almost no runout. I also use the Lee Collet Die and the Redding Type S FL die with expander removed. This combo allows me to increase neck tension if desired.

I have had excellent results with my Lee collet does in 270Win, 5 shots at 0.5 inch ....

I have a large amount of Lee reloading equipment. Most of it works quite well for me. I must say I do appreciate their low prices, since it has probably helped grow our hobby more than any other manufacturer's equipment.

I am slowly replacing thier dies and things with those items that I find to be substantially better....For example, I have dies from Lee, RCBS, Hornady, and Redding. The Redding dies, IMO, are best, but I find RCBS to be overpriced and no better than the Lee dies.

I like the Lee Collet Die. There is nothing else on the market like it, and it has done very well for me.

The Factory Crimp Die is something nobody is neutral about. I like mine, and have gotten them in many calibers. My tests show an improvement in accuracy as long as the bullet isn't crimped at the beginning or end of the bearing surface. One of the AR links does a good study of this question...

The Lee Autodisk Pro (and DD kit) have become a favorite of mine as well. It is a very repeatable, convienient measure. I find it very useful atop Lee's Powder-thru Expanding dies or their rifle adapter--it is my measure of choice when size appropriate, and I put it on my Hornady LNL AP in place of their measure at times.

Unfortunately, all dies are not equal. I am slowly upgrading out of those products I'm not happy with....

Also, remember that any manufacturer can screw up an individual die. I've not had any really bad dies from anyone, but it does happen.

I'm happy with Lee in their market niche. If I need competition seating dies I look elsewhere.

Cheers,

Dan

the biggest problem i've seen using lee's equipment is that most folks don't read the directions, then blame the tool(s) when something doesn't go right.

the second problem is that they don't talk to lee. any problem i couldn't resolve, i talked to them, and they made it right at no cost to me.

on top of that, they did it in a friendly manner and keeping within the traditions of a small, family-owned business. anyone who can't support that concept needs to re-think their values.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim C. <><:
I suppose if we all liked the same things there would only be one brand of loading tools, bullets, powders, etc. And I doubt anyone really cares which brands I don't like.

It's not about like mate, I like the look of them, I like the ring lock system, I like the stated intent of AR (exchange of info and opinions, so take my opinions. . . or not.

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:
JAL, you need to try one more Lee thing...their money back warranty. Let us know how you like that.

I like that a lot, but I'd probably pay more in postage than I paid for the dies.

Thing is, nothing has broken, everything works, everything is good enough for backups, everything is worth the cost.

But, If you don't mind, I have found to MY satisfaction that the collet die didn't give me more accuracy, it gave a very light bullet grip which would almost require using the crimp die,
which also didn't seem to be any use.

So to sort cases into NS and PFLS and stuff around with extra dies to no avail just isn't on for me.
And yeah, about the only book I've ever given away was Lee's reloading II. (Just didn't suit me, if that's alright??)

quote:

Originally posted by tasunkawitko:
the biggest problem i've seen using lee's equipment is that most folks don't read the directions, then blame the tool(s) when something doesn't go right.

Jeese I'm having a field day here.
So your saying that people DO read the directions on all other brands?
(Yes I read Lee's directions.)

quote:

the second problem is that they don't talk to lee. any problem i couldn't resolve, i talked to them, and they made it right at no cost to me.

I can't see what having a chat to Lee would fix for me.
But I did just that with Redding (E-Mail) which got the problem fixed, with a really nice friendly big business attitude and quick responce.

quote:

anyone who can't support that concept needs to re-think their values.

That's exactly what I'm doing, I'm thinking I'd be better off spending more. I kinda like Hornady dies, (but not their beam scale.)

quote:

Originally posted by JAL:

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:
JAL, you need to try one more Lee thing...their money back warranty. Let us know how you like that.

I like that a lot, but I'd probably pay more in postage than I paid for the dies.

Thing is, nothing has broken, everything works, everything is good enough for backups, everything is worth the cost.

But, If you don't mind, I have found to MY satisfaction that the collet die didn't give me more accuracy... (Just didn't suit me, if that's alright??)

Hey mate, it's no skin off my nose. I didn't realize that you were on the other side of the world when I made my warranty suggestion. BTW, Lee makes no distinction that something of their's has to be broken to get it warrantied. Saying you didn't like the way it performed or didn't perform is good enough to get your money back.

I'm sure you got some of the responses you did because the factory crimp and collet neck sizing dies have given lots of reloaders exactly what was promised by Lee, me included. They were just giving suggestions based on their own experiences using these products. You seem to be the exception rather than the rule.

Your next step up the quality ladder would be Hornady dies. Good luck with them.

A lot of folks that wind up unhappy with their reloading equipment do so because they don't know what they are doing in the first place. They expect a miracle product a low prices. They are doomed to disappointment when they find they will not get a miracle product at high prices either.

quote:

Originally posted by JAL:
No I don't mean that cute girl at High School.
That was never going to happen.

So I've been buying Lee dies and things to try.
Tests have been short, but,

Just tried some collet dies, 6 shots didn't go as accurate as the same loads made with a Hornady FLS die (PFLS).

Same loads were done with a Lee seating die plus a medium to full Lee factory crimp.
That didn't help either, and I had tried the F.Crimp couple years ago, as against no crimp.

The no crimp won then also.
The recent test of only 6 each was Hornady 7/8"
Lee 1 1/2" at 100 yd.

Also bought a Lee .458WM die set. The FLS die shaved brass off the case (badly) and the seater die was nearly off the threads which looked like alimunium, & looked about to strip.

So I took the seperate seater piston out and just used the top cap. Later changed to RCBS.

My Lee trimming tools cut way too short for me, like about 15/17 thou. under max. Glued the measuring pin out a bit and now it (only) cuts to 1.750 (-10thou).

The hand press seems to work well but the primer seater attachment doesn't seat 'em fully.
(But then I've never had a press that did.)

The Lee hand primer tools work very well, both with and without the magazine disk.
I won't be throwing them out.

Not impressed, over all.

You have discovered the same thing Me and others have been saying all along. Lee stuff is not built very well.
The trimmers start cutting too short because the flat base of the case holder is too soft and peens in allowing the case to be trimmed too far.
The cheap metal of the priming tools eventually wears out and won't seat primers all the way in - I've done it.
The Crimp dies will wear out too and are often so rough they will leave a big scratch on your cases.

Some of their designs are truly excellent, I just wish that they would manufacture them better, I'd pay twice as much for a well made crimp die.
If you only load a few rounds, Lee might be the cheapest way to go. If you load a lot other, better made equipment is cheaper in the long run because you only have to buy it once............................DJ

I started out purchasing rcbs dies. But several years ago mover to lee because I get the shellholder and a specialty die in the deluxe set for the same money as the rcbs. Never had a problem with any die set.

It would be hard to imagine reloading without their Collet Neck Sizers and Factory Crimp Dies.

Please send ALL your defective Lee equipment to me. I will see that it is disposed of in a proper manner.

Best wishes, Bill

Originally posted by Jim C. <><:
I suppose if we all liked the same things there would only be one brand of loading tools, bullets, powders, etc. And I doubt anyone really cares which brands I don't like.

It's not about like mate, I like the look of them, I like the ring lock system, I like the stated intent of AR (exchange of info and opinions, so take my opinions. . . or not.[/quote]

I fully concur. My point is that, in my opinon, I doubt many people much care about my opinion on such a popular tool.

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:


I'm sure you got some of the responses you did because the factory crimp and collet neck sizing dies have given lots of reloaders exactly what was promised by Lee, me included.

Well, what was promised by Lee, or implied, is that both dies will improve accuracy. Improved over what? IS factory ammo more accurate than handloads without crimp? Sure sometimes, but not that often.

Do BR shooters all use these two marvelous tools to improve their accuracy? What is the accepted ballpark improvement. Has Lee put out some tables of improvements he has recorded using the collet and F/C against (say) my Hornady, using PFLS'ing.

Now, If you got an improvement over standard Lee dies. . . well, that's perhaps another thing. However, I agree that Lee's two dies may improve certain loads, especially if correcting some abnormalities in other dies.

Heck, just changing the day I shoot can improve my accuracy.

So, I'm the odd one out? Or the only one you've heard off?

quote:

Originally posted by STINGER:
Please send ALL your defective Lee equipment to me. I will see that it is disposed of in a proper manner.

Best wishes, Bill

Very amusing. Been said before.
So what was defective? A little rub with emery fixed the sharp edged die. I'm not the first with that problem, and sorry, I've already given it away to a friend. I'd still be using it except I came into some 2nd hand RCBS.

The .458 seater die was basically too short. Gee,must have been my fault there somewhere.
Sorry, that whole set has already gone to a good home.

Nothing faulty about the collet or F/crimp, mate, just didn't do for me what Lee said it would. Poo, my fault again.

Now I had an RCBS hand primer break, do you want the bits?
I had a Redding turret 7 holer that wobbled about 12thou. but your not getting that. They told me how to fix it.
Bad luck fella.

quote:

Originally posted by ireload2:
A lot of folks that wind up unhappy with their reloading equipment do so because they don't know what they are doing in the first place. They expect a miracle product a low prices. They are doomed to disappointment when they find they will not get a miracle product at high prices either.

If this is for me, It's what I deserve alright.
A newbe at reloading, only about 50 years trial and error. We have in Aus. our Simplex loading gear,looks a copy of RCBS. Never a problem.
RCBS, never a problem. Hornady, love 'em. Never a problem with their "sliding" primer rod even.

Lee sneered at Hornady's sliding bullet guide on their seater die, but hey, I find it no problem. But I don't know if it's any use.

No, I bought some Lee stuff on AVAILABILITY. I bought the "uncheap" collet just to try, out of bordom. Don't think I'll ever use it again.
I bought the F/crimps for much the same reason, plus Lee and some on AR reckon it's easier to use, but I don't have a lot of trouble with the normal crimps, considering I have different case lengths.

No, it's not about money. If it was I guess all other die suppliers would be out of business.
Gee, do you think I could write to Lee and apoligise for having a less than stellar experence with his stuff?

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
It would be hard to imagine reloading without their Collet Neck Sizers and Factory Crimp Dies.

Really? I've managed OK since about 1959 ish.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim C. <><:

I fully concur. My point is that, in my opinon, I doubt many people much care about my opinion on such a popular tool.

Well, when we are gifted with AR forums, If YOU have an unexpected experience GOOD or BAD with shooting products, "I" do want to read your opinion Jim. What the hell else are we hear for?

quote:

Originally posted by buckeyeshooter:
I started out purchasing rcbs dies. But several years ago mover to lee because I get the shellholder and a specialty die in the deluxe set for the same money as the rcbs. Never had a problem with any die set.

Yes, it's a pain not getting a shell holder with die sets, and I've always whinged about not getting a neck die also.

But hey, I bought the Lee shell holder set for dies and his primer tools. Love 'em. I now have up to four for a calibre.

quote:

Originally posted by djpaintles:
, I'd pay twice as much for a well made crimp die.
......................DJ

Um, yes but honestly, I don't see what the problem is with the standard seater/crimp die With cases the same length, you just adjust the die until it is about to crimp, adjust the seater stem to ALMOST seat to the cannelure, then wind the die body down a LITTLE bit, and Bob's your uncle. Mind you, I have stuffed a few up at times.

But, it's the sort of challenge I like.

quote:

Originally posted by JAL:
Gee, do you think I could write to Lee and apoligise for having a less than stellar experence with his stuff?

No need for apologies. However, it wouldn't hurt to take a few minutes to relay your less-than-stellar experience using Lee's products. It can't hurt and won't cost anything if you email Lee. I'm sure all who posted on your thread would relish reading Lee's reply. Who knows, maybe they'll send you replacements free of charge just to see if they can change your mind and keep you as a customer. It's happened before.

I have used Lee Precision products and will tell you quite frankly, IMO, Lee is the cheapest piece of crap as ever was. I no longer buy anything Lee makes and will spend the extra money for the good stuff from now on. Life is too short to tolerate their iferior BS junk. Period

Depends on what you are going for.

For instance, I have a factory crimp die for my .308 Win and my .223.

My .308 will shoot tighter groups with a Lee crimp, and my .223's become scatter guns with one. Is that a problem with the tool? Probably not.

But for a quality die, I usually go for Hornady or Forester. Again depends on what I am trying to do.

I currently only use the Lee trimmers, mainly because I don't have the money to get a "real" one.

Lee dies and trimmers.



Lee dies and trimmers.



Lee dies and trimmers. Shot from an old roughed up M1 Garand, military peep sights.

What am I doing wrong!!??

well duh, if you spent twice as much for your dies your groups would be half as big, AND you get the side benefit of being able to criticize users of Lee equipment for having insufficiently-expensive reloading tools.

P.S., I am a proud user of Lee products, and other brands too. lee's low prices and clever innovations keep the other guys honest.

quote:

Originally posted by delloro:
well duh, if you spent twice as much for your dies your groups would be half as big, AND you get the side benefit of being able to criticize users of Lee equipment for having insufficiently-expensive reloading tools.

P.S., I am a proud user of Lee products, and other brands too. lee's low prices and clever innovations keep the other guys honest.

I think I'm too old and shakey to notice a difference!!

My son bought a Lee die set when he got his 7-08. Basic set, FL sizer and seating die. It left the neck oversize, you could seat bullets by hand, there wasn't enough resistace to get a uniform seating depth. Groups didn't look too good. He ordered a RCBS set and now gets under MOA with many different loads.
I bought a collet sizer for my 223s. Works as advertised, but because I run two different rifles in this caliber and use the same load in them, I get hard chambering with one of them. Went back to the old sizer and bumped the sholders to match the shorter chamber and don't have any problems. This one isn't Lees fault, just two different chambers.

quote:

Originally posted by delloro:
Lee's low prices and clever innovations keep the other guys honest.

The other guys ignore Lee's existence. They are not competing for the same market.

There isn't much that Lee makes that I like. Their hand primer tool is ok & their collet rifle dies aren't bad. I like their 6cav bullet molds & 20# casting pot. The rest of the stuff, well, there is a reason Lee is so cheap IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by JAL:

quote:

Originally posted by tasunkawitko:
the biggest problem i've seen using lee's equipment is that most folks don't read the directions, then blame the tool(s) when something doesn't go right.

Jeese I'm having a field day here.
So your saying that people DO read the directions on all other brands?
(Yes I read Lee's directions.)

quote:

the second problem is that they don't talk to lee. any problem i couldn't resolve, i talked to them, and they made it right at no cost to me.

I can't see what having a chat to Lee would fix for me.
But I did just that with Redding (E-Mail) which got the problem fixed, with a really nice friendly big business attitude and quick responce.

quote:

anyone who can't support that concept needs to re-think their values.

That's exactly what I'm doing, I'm thinking I'd be better off spending more. I kinda like Hornady dies, (but not their beam scale.)

JAL - i wasn't referring to you specifically, but interesting to see that i touched a nerve there....