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I am having a 6.5-06 built by Border Barrels, but have come across a problem. 6.5-06 dies! there seems to be 2 different types. There is the 6.5-06 springfield, and the 6.5-06 A.Square, I intend to use the 25-06 cases and just neck them up to save getting the doughnut in the neck. Border are unsure at the moment just exactly what the reamer is, they are gpoing to measure it on Monday and let me know. Obviously once I have the reamer measurements then I can decide which cases I have to use. Mt question is this: Is the A.Square die for using 25-06 or is the springfield for using 30-06 cases or vice versa. I do not want to go down the road of neck turning and reaming. regards in advance griff | ||
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You're a little backwards, IMO, in your plans for using 25-06 vs 30-06 brass. I'm planning a similar build, have everything except the reamer and dies, and have been contemplating which parent brass to use. The 'dreaded donut' often occurs when SMALLER brass is necked up to a larger caliber, since there is often a thickening of the case wall immediately behind the base of the shoulder, where the neck flares out and becomes the shoulder. When the neck is expanded, this thick area becomes a part of the case neck down at its base and often forms a ring, the 'dreaded donut'. Yes, expanding a smaller neck will often result in thinner brass at the front end of the case neck, but the donut at the base will often occur anyway. Necking down from 30-06 OTOH will ensure that the thicker area is moved even further back down the shoulder from the new juncture, causing no problems. Yes, you'll possibly want to ream or turn the case necks slightly, if only to square them up for better centering in the chamber and consequent improved accuracy. The alternative is to use 270 WCF brass, requiring no changes whatever except sizing. Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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As far as I know the standard 6.5-06 is an "A-Square" and RCBS has this die. Further the die is not relevant as to what brass is used. Call the "smith" and ask if he is using an "A-Square" style reamer and match whatever he is using. (there may be shoulder angle differences in the two mentioned chamberings) IMO you should have no trouble necking down .30-06 brass or even .270 brass (this will require additional trimming....no big deal) or necking up .25-06 brass....it's only .007" and if you neck up once fired .25-06 brass it's likely only .004. If it was me, I'd pay the extra and get headstamped 6.5-06 brass from A-Square as I don't want the brass confused with my existing .25-06, .270, and .30-06.....it's up to you! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Whatever route you choose, it's best to check and double-check everything. I've had extensive experience with the 6.5-257 Roberts wildcat in several rifles since the '60s, and have formed the brass from 7x57 (2 makers), 257 Roberts (3 makers) and 6.5x57 Mauser among others. Had BY FAR the most problems with the 6.5x57 Mauser brass but that IMO was because it was RWS. The rest gave better results but some of it still needed neck-turning work, both the 7mm and the 257 brass still had occasional thick sides and donuts. Nowadays, after many, many years of forming a wide assortment of wildcat brass in multiple, multiple forms, I routinely first anneal and trim all brass before any necking operation begins and also plan on either reaming the inside or turning the outside of the necks after the necking is complete. Have found that this method, although more work in the beginning, nevertheless gives less overall trouble in the end for most applications. The annealing ensures more consistent wall thickness, the trimming ensures fewer neck splits & unevenness and the subsequent turning/reaming ensures straighter & thus more accurate cartridges. But it IS a little more work in the beginning. Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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Vapodog, thanks for that,I am still unsure of which to use, maybe i'm putting more into this than is neccesary. Necking down 30-06 will give me a thicker neck than if I neck up a 25, therefore the dies need to match the reamer unless I turn the cases. regards griff sorry JD missed your post there. It looks like I am going to have to turn and ream the cases, not what I wanted to do! griff | |||
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I use 06 brass for mine so I can control the neck thickness. I love this cal. Its all you need for anything in Colorado..I have both redding and rcbs dies. Either works well | |||
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IMO a "properly chambered" 6.5-06 will digest the necked down .30-06 brass and the .25-06 brass without any neck turning at all. In other words....you should be able to chamber and safely fire either without skipping a beat. If you want a "tight neck" situation then that requires a "special" tight neck reamer and you must turn the case necks regardless of the source of brass. IMO...you're making too much of this whole thing.....just do it! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Vapo is right about the chamber accepting ammo made with either the 25 or 30-06 brass. A couple notes to what I have read here, that I believe will help. I load the 6.5-06, and use RCBS dies, the A Square thing, I believe muddies the waters, cause they tacked their name on the round. I use Remington 270 Brass, nceked down to 264. The caveot with this method is, YOU MUST TRIM THE BRASS, UNLESS YOUR THROAT IS REAMED OUT ANOTHER .050, as the 270 is that much longer than the 30-06. As to using 25-06 cases, the neck walls are thinner than 270 or 06, and if the sizing die is on the large side, you may find that the cases may not hold the bullets properly. I experienced this problem with a 6-06. I ordered some CH Dies, for this caliber. If I use 06 cases, I have proper neck tension. If I use 25-06 cases, sized in the CH Dies, they won't hold a bullet. CH informed me that they cut the dies with the 06 case in mind, and I should not use 25-06. What I did was to get a 6mm neck sizer, and after sizing the 25-06 cases in the CH Dies, I run them thru the RCBS neck sizer, and the problem is gone. After the first time the ammo is shot,I only neck size anyway so it is not inconvenient. Just choose a set of RCBS 6.5-06 and go to it. Good luck, you'll find it to be a very usefull addition to your collection. Jerry NRA Benefactor Life Member | |||
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If it were me, I'd ask them to include a Chamber Cast with the rifle. It provides excellent information on a Wildcat that I'd otherwise be guessing at. Best of luck with the new rifle. | |||
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As others have said the 6.5-06 and the 6.5-06A Square are the same. As to brass it is simply your choice. 25-06, 270, with trimming, 30-06 all will work. Heck even 280 brass. Going with the 30-06 will give you a little tigher clearance in your neck. Could help accuracy. For my $ I would get 30-06 lapua and not look back. If you prefer the correct headstamp you can go that way as well. Since I shoot so many wildcats having a correct headstamp is rare for me. Never been an issue but you do need to keep case separate. As usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
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I always turn a small ring on the case head bottom, to identify it as a wildcat. I simply chuck each case in the lathe and turn a tiny groove into the bottom of the head, through the caliber markings, maybe 0.005" deep at most, just enough to deface the marks so as to attract my attention. DO NOT use 280 brass without turning or reaming the necks! The body of the 280 is noticeably longer than the others and the action of pushing the shoulder back WILL leave a donut at the base of the neck. I plan to use a Lee collet die for my neck-sizing. Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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Griff: Here's another thing that came to mind, while I was thinking of your situation. If your smith hasn't chambered your barrel yet, perhaps a conversation with him ,as to how long he is going to cut the leade in the throat, may be necessary. It seems that lots of smith's like to use a one piece finish reamer, which has the throatter and reamer built as one. The only problem with that, and the one I experienced with my 6.5-06, is the throat was so long, I couldn't touch the rifling with the lighter bullets. I had to have the barrel set back, and then recut. If the simth uses sperate reamers and throaters, you can set the leade exactly where you want it, or more correctly, how deep you wish it to be. In a Mauser action for example, with this proceedure, on can chamber with the short magazine in mind, and eliminate bottom metal problems. Just a thought. Jerry NRA Benefactor Life Member | |||
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OR...if you find that resized 25-06 cases will not provide enough tension to hold your 6.5-06 bullets you can take the expander pin/plug out of your die and just lightly buff off about 1/1000th of an inch on the expander plug using some emery cloth. That allows the slightly smaller expander plug to size the brass producing a little more tension. I use RCBS dies and just expand 25-06 cases and never had a donut problem, but did have a problem with bullet tension. I also have a 256 Newton that I used to make brass for out of 30-06s -- this was back before Remington commercialized the 25 Neider into the the 25-06 and 30-06 brass was the easiest way to go. When I made those 256 Newton cases I always had to ream the inside of the necks or I could not get the cases to chamber because the neck brass was too thick. That is the reason I went to using 25-06 brass when I built my 6.5-06. Barstooler | |||
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I have a choice from 25/06 to 30/06, I prefer the 270 Winchester or the 280 Remington cases, both are .043 thousands too long and require trimming. The 6.5/06 is a group D die set meaning they are expensive. I have the case forming/trim die from RCBS, trimming is a matter of hack saw/file finish then full length size the case and process. The option of 270 or 280 would depend on the chamber, if all I knew about it was 'it was chambered in 6.5/06' I would use the 280 Remington case, reason. the 280 Remington shoulder is ahead of the 6.5/06 shoulder .051 thousands. The .051 thousands allows me to adjust the forming die off the shell holder to increase the length of the case between the head of the case and shoulder, by design this technique allows for off setting the effect of head space with a case that is longer from the head of the case to it's shoulder. How much? I start with .005 thousands, I form the case, trim then full length size without moving the shoulder back by maintaining the .005 gap between the shell holder and bottom of the die, if after full length sizing the case chambers with resistance I decrease the gap and continue sizing and adjusting until the case chambers. I am not a fan of chambering a case with resistance to bolt closing, that is the way bolt lugs are lapped together. F. Guffey | |||
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