Is this load even close to safe for a Marlin 45-70 1895?

Bullet: 275g
Powder Weight: 62g
Powder type: 4198
Velocity: 2817 fps
OAL: 2.410"
Primer: Win LR

"This is a very powerful load developed using my Marlin 1895 CB. The extreme spread was 19.0 and the standard deviation 9.5. grouped 2" at 50 yards using factory iron sights. Bullet is hardcast, gas checked, sized to .458 and lubed twice with heavy coats of Liquid alox. Leading was minimal. This load is intended for strong modern firearms ONLY and should be considered a MAXIMUM LOAD! Also may be too fast for anything other than varmint sized game due to the possibility of the bullet not holding together when contacting heavy bone."

Because if it was, and I could get a good constructed bullet, it would be the bomb for deer or anything...4846 ft lbs, that's more than double lots of 45-70 loads. Wouldn't it be approaching 458 Win.?

Thanks for ny replies.

For "modern rifles designed for high pressure loads" Hodgdon shows 50.0 grs of IMR4198 as a MAX load using a 300gr bullet. Granted, you're using 275's, but I think your 62.0grs is a little bit more than way too hot.

If you want a 458 mag , get one !!! The 300 gr factory loads work very well on deer .If you want you could load them up to 2200 fps .Anything above that is ridiculous .

What reloading manual did you get that load out of. Personally I would never load a 45-70 with it. I use 405-gr or above using a super hard cast. Here is what I'm talking about with the 45-70 Pile Driver.

It's not my load I just found it on the internet, that's by far the hottest load I've ever seen.

quote:

Originally posted by Tyler Kemp:
It's not my load I just found it on the internet, that's by far the hottest load I've ever seen.

Be very cautious of loads you find on the internet. I've got a Siam mauser in 45-70 and there's no way I'd try that load in that rifle or any other for that matter.

Never use load data you find on the Internet excepting from a supplier like Hodgdon or Winchester (and then I like to see supporting data in writing).

Remember that you could write detailed instructions on how to do brain surgery using nothing more than a icecream scoop, salad tongs and Tequila and after you posted it on the Internet no one would correct your technique.

A 45-70 will whack deer quite handily without heroic reloading efforts.

Ha, it might work in that guys 1895, but I ain't gonna try it. Thanks to some nice guys on this forum, I should be recieving some reloading stuff sometime soon. I'm hoping to get a 45-70 for my birthday, split the cost with my dad. What does a Siamese Mauser in 45-70 cost? I've heard several people say they shoot accurate, and you can load up to Ruger #1 levels. Of course it also doesn't offer the quick multiple shots that I might need in the woods.

A Siamese Mauser action was recently sold here in the classifieds. I think it went for $325. I have seen Siam Mausers in 45-70 (and other calibers) advertised on the various auction sites for $600 on up. Save your pennys!

quote:

Originally posted by Tyler Kemp:
Ha, it might work in that guys 1895, but I ain't gonna try it. Thanks to some nice guys on this forum, I should be recieving some reloading stuff sometime soon. I'm hoping to get a 45-70 for my birthday, split the cost with my dad. What does a Siamese Mauser in 45-70 cost? I've heard several people say they shoot accurate, and you can load up to Ruger #1 levels. Of course it also doesn't offer the quick multiple shots that I might need in the woods.

A bit of advice from a long time reloader and shooter never ever take data from the net or your acquaintences only from a recognized reloading manual.I had a friend who ignored max load warnings in manuals adding more powder and when he opened the bolt the primers would drop out of the case ,he had a hard time opening his actions.We think he blew up many of his weapons.Try some garrett cartridges http://www.garrettcartridges.com but heed the warnings that he gives on the 540 gr bullet.



lew up lots of weapons

Might be.

Every rifle is different.

Also the 4198's are a little diffent from each other.

The highest load I found was 63 grains imr4198 and a 300 grain bullet.

http://stevespages.com/458_1_300.html

I can tell you that I work up carefully to any loads I use from anywhere!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Tyler Kemp:
Is this load even close to safe for a Marlin 45-70 1895?

Bullet: 275g
Powder Weight: 62g
Powder type: 4198
Velocity: 2817 fps
OAL: 2.410"
Primer: Win LR

Tyler,

I have a Marlin 45-70 Guide Gun that I load for. That load is an accident waiting to happen, it has to be at least 7 to 8 grains OVER what the max would be for a 275 gr bullet in a 45-70 levergun.

DON'T EVER TRUST LOADS FOUND ON THE INTERNET UNLESS THEY COME FROM ONE OF POWDER MAKERS WEBSITES (HODGDON, IMR, ALLIANT, ETC.) AND EVEN THEN WORK UP TO THEM.

There are a lot of idiots out there who think that the published max loads are starting loads. Always consult at least three manuals (even they make mistakes and typos in their manuals) before using any load.

BTW, I am sending your stuff out this week, including three manuals. Did you get things worked out with Forrest?

Cheers,
Andy

My dad said he'd see about calling him but he never replied when I asked him his phone number. My dad sent the email giving everyone permission to send stuff, but I guess he wants a phone call.

I think you are way too hot.... Fast is not always better. I am loading 54 grains of H4198 using 300 grain Nosler partitions in my guide gun (carefully worked up). Works well, real well, and plenty hot enough. Muskox, bison, elk, hogs......

RMiller, I just checked Steve's pages which shows 63 gr. 4198 for the 300 gr bullet like you said, but look at the load for the 250 gr bullet, which shows a load of only 53 gr. max. Doesn't look right to me!

For a fun load I like 405 gr cast over 10 gr unique.
(fun to shoot no pain.)
Lyle

quote:

Originally posted by RMiller:
Might be.

Every rifle is different.

Also the 4198's are a little diffent from each other.

The highest load I found was 63 grains imr4198 and a 300 grain bullet.

http://stevespages.com/458_1_300.html

I can tell you that I work up carefully to any loads I use from anywhere!!!

The max load on my page was developed for a Ruger single-shot rifle. The loads shown had no adverse effects ... Your Marlin does NOT fall into that class of rifle.

As usual, start low and work-up gradually.

As for all of you who stated to never use any data found on the internet, bull-dinky!

quote:

Originally posted by hart:
RMiller, I just checked Steve's pages which shows 63 gr. 4198 for the 300 gr bullet like you said, but look at the load for the 250 gr bullet, which shows a load of only 53 gr. max. Doesn't look right to me!

Gee, I wonder if that could be because the 250 grain bullet was a Barnes "X" and all the other were Sierra or Hornady?

quote:

Originally posted by ricciardelli:
As for all of you who stated to never use any data found on the internet, bull-dinky!

I didn't say never use any data found on the internet I said not to trust any data found on the internet unless it comes from a manufacturer's website. By that I mean consult a couple of good manuals to check the load for sanity before using it. I would never load from any data that was from a single source whether it was internet, manuals, etc without checking the load against a couple of published manuals.

I think that is good advice, particularly in this case, as the original poster who asked the question is a kid who wants to start reloading. The data on your pages may be fine but I've seen too many people throwing around crazy loads over the internet for me to trust anything that I find on someone's webpage or in a forum without consulting manuals.

I buy the reloading books with one book/one caliber. I can find the highest load in there and the load off Stevespages and then work up slow to whatever is higher. Many times it is the same charge.

One, I am shocked you got 62gr in the case, and two, that is about the most dangerous load I heard of.

I have tested up to 53gr 4198 with 300gr partitions and I even saw I was playing in dangerous terrortory at almost 2350fps.

I wouldn't ever trust the 62gr load in Ruger No. 1. I am not sure where you got that load.

But if its where I think its from, you get what you paid for it. I seen many a dangerous load on his sight.

I got it from handloads.com. Some people said it was a pretty good website, so I checked it out. Obviously I know now not to trust loads like that.

I had trouble with vertical stringing in my marlin past 48gr. I settled on 47gr with 300gr partition which clocked at little over 2000fps. Pretty impressive load on game.

For some reason peopel want to make out the 45-70 to be close to a 458win mag. It just won't happen.

Threads like this are why every reloader should have something called "reloading manuals" and READ THEM!!!

Im not saying that they are the last word mind you, but that guy is trying to make his 45-70 lever gun perform like a 375 H&H. Sounds like an excellent way to get reciever fragments lodged into your skull to me.

Id like to see what quickload says about the psi of that one. Bottom line is, if you want more power the answer is not to juice up your little gun, the answer is to get a bigger gun.

quote:

Originally posted by mete:
If you want a 458 mag , get one !!!

This is the bottom line here. I just don't understand why people keep pushing the .45-70 beyond it's limits. If you want Magnum Caliber performance, then a Magnum Caliber weapon should be purchased! Up the performance level to a .458 or .460. It's just foolish to push a century+ cartridge beyond it's limits "just because you can." Bill T.

Yes, it's too hot.

By about 500fps.

That load would probably be OK in a Ruger #1, but not in anything else.

AllanD

What would the pressures run? Aren't 1895s safe to 43k and Rugers to 50k?

Now a voice of reason.

If it is H4198 then it is entirely possible that it is a safe load in the Marlin 1895.

Marlin 1895 45-70 24" barrel
300 grain Sierra ProHunter hollow point seated to 2.525" COL
Winchester brass, 2.1" trim
CCI 200 primer
START - 55 grains H4198 2221 fps 27,600 CUP
MAXIMUM - 60 grains H4198 2424 fps 40,000 CUP
Source: Hodgdon #27

A 45-70 load of a .458" 275 grain hard cast gas checked bullet and 62 grains of H4198 could be a safe load in the Marlin 1895. The bullet is 25 grains lighter than the bullet in the Hodgdon load and is a cast bullet, probably with less bearing surface and softer than the jacketed Sierra. Cast bullets generally can be driven faster than jacketed bullets of the same weight or driven the same speed with less pressure. The charge is only 2 grains more than the charge for a bullet that has more bearing surface, is harder and 25 grains heavier. The velocity might be suspect, but it is reported to be out of a 26" barrel.

However, without pressure testing equipment to verify pressures it would be prudent to stay away from such loads found on the Internet, unless they can be verified as reasonable from other sources. I'm especially leery of anyone who does not take the time to specify the powder manufacturer. Any serious reloader ought to know better. There is a big difference between IMR4198 and H4198.

The safe operating pressure of the Marlin 1895 45-70 is 40,000 CUP. The safe operating pressure of the Marlin 1895 450 Marlin is 43,500 PSI. The safe operating pressure of the Ruger Number 1 and 3, and the Siamese Mauser in 45-70 is 50,000 CUP.

I've used the Hodgdon #27 starting load with 300 grain Sierras, Hornadys and Speers and don't think I need to use anything else for deer, hogs or average-sized black bear. They all run about 2170 fps in my 22" barrelled Marlin 1895.

How much velocity do you lose with a Guide Gun with 18.5 inch barrel? Buffalo Bore says subtract 50 fps, but others say around 50-70 fps per inch. That's a big difference.

Velocity loss per barrel length depends on velocity range.Under 2000 fps it's negligible.It's probably no more than 50 fps. I cut my 1885 from 28 to 22" and didn't even give it a thought !!

So I guess a 1895g is about a ballistic equal of the 1895 with 22" barrel?

62.0 gr of H 4198 will generate 71500psi with a 275gr Speer bullet according to Quick Load.
Who ever advertized that load must be nuts or tired of living. The brass at this pressure would be in a semi molten state partially melted appart.

quote:

Originally posted by ZERMEL:
62.0 gr of H 4198 will generate 71500psi with a 275gr Speer bullet according to Quick Load.

BOOM!!!!!

Wow, 71k...don't believe I will be trying anywhere near that. Hey adrook, did you end up sending that stuff out or what? Forrest hasn't replied in I think4 days, IDK what to do about it.

FWIW, the Hodgdon 2006 Annual lists a max load of 63gr of H4198 for the 300gr Sierra @ 50kcup in the modern rifle level loads.

Tyler,

I've got your stuff boxed up out in the garage and will get it out to you in the next couple of days.

Forrest wanted to talk to your Dad. Have you sent him your number or did he give you his number? I could PM if necessary.

Andy

Hodgdon lists 55.0gr H4198 with a 300gr Sier. bullet at 2221ft.
http://www.hodgdon.com/data/rifle/4570gov.php.

According to Quick Load a 300gr bullet with 63gr of that powder would generate 75000+psi and the load would be 117% loading density or a highly compressed charge with no room for the bullet in the case.

Som ting wong big time.

I pmed and emailed him asking for his number, with no reply. If you wanna send the stuff that would be great, if you want to wait I guess I understand why. What if I had my dad send you another email?

quote:

Som ting wong big time.

Yeah, Quick Load. 55 grains of H4198 with the Sierra 300 grain ProHunter hollow point is the starting load for the Marlin 1895 45-70 and was pressure tested at 27,600 CUP. The maximum Hodgdon (#27 or 2006 Annual Manual) load for that bullet in the Marlin 1895 45-70 is 60 grains which yields 40,000 CUP. According to Hodgdon, 63 grains of H4198 with the 300 grain Sierra in the Ruger #1 is a 50,000 CUP load. 50,000 CUP is approximately 57,891 PSI.



With 40,000 CUP 45-70 loads for the Marlin 1895, the average velocity difference is 26 fps per inch of barrel, and around 20 fps per inch of barrel with 28,000 CUP loads.

quote:

Is this load even close to safe for a Marlin 45-70 1895?

Maybe si, maybe no. All rifles are individuals, so you'd have to find the answer to this for your own rifle by starting way below that load, and working up slowly. Stop increasing the powder charge if you see that things are getting too hot!

That said, I have two loads for my Ruger No. 1 .45/70 that are based on information from an old Hornady manual, and these loads are very fine in my rifle - in both I use the 400-grain Barnes Original semispitzer:

1: 63 grains of RE 7, MV 2270 FPS.
2: 60 grains IMR 3031, MV 2050 FPS.

Both loads exceed most published .45/70 data, but are OK in my No. 1. Believe me, these were worked up to from considerably below. For example, I started with Elmer Keith's old M86 Win. load of 53 grains of IMR 3031 with the 400-grain bullet and worked up to 60 very carefullY!

BTW, both these loads kick like hell, but don't damage brass.