just asking.. but when yall clean the bore of your rifle, and you shoot fouler shots through the gun. how big of a spread do you get from fouler shots

It depends on how much oil was left in the bore. If really coated the bullets can go several MOA off your point of aim.
I pull a bore-Snake through mine before I fire the first shot. Seems to help.

i dont put oil in my bore.. stainless barrel. there is nothing in my bore but raw, sqeaky clean steel,

One flier. The rest is your group(ing).
Every rifle is it's own world so keep track.
I have two Remingtons that shoot "dirty" best -- ten shots to get it back after squeaky clean.

quote:

Originally posted by BNagel:
One flier. The rest is your group(ing).
Every rifle is it's own world so keep track.
I have two Remingtons that shoot "dirty" best -- ten shots to get it back after squeaky clean.

Yep,

I have a stainless steel Ruger that takes 15 - 20 rounds to get accurate groups from after I clean it.

The damn thing drove me crazy trying to develop groups for it until I forgot to clean it one day after a long range session. The next range session with a dirty bore was an eye opener.

Now I only clean it every 300 rounds or so and then put a box of rounds through it before I go hunting.

quote:

Yep,

I have a stainless steel Ruger that takes 15 - 20 rounds to get accurate groups from after I clean it.

yea, i also have a ruger m77 S.S. .260 rem.
Fjold,, how big is your fouler groups before it starts grouping. i am shooting all fliers there is no group at all. this gun will shoot dime size groups at 100 yards when it is right. i have never had the problem before. it usually takes about 10 rounds or so to get back grouping. i even sent my weaver scope back to get it checked, weaver said it was nothing wrong with it. right now i am shooting a 4" group.

My Ruger#1 just shot3" for about 10 shots with a squeaky clean bore. Then it settled in nice with cold bore shots. It always flings bullets after it coppers up. Best estimate 100shots. The bronze brush is all it gets till it flings.

The new Savage AxisII XP 30-06 responded well with a squeaky clean bore, and full length sized ammo for hunting. After six shots I put it away until I pull down on a deer. Extremely Happy.

2 weeks ago I loaded for my brother's M77 .243Win and FL sized starting loads. It shot VERY well with 3 different shooters.

After thinking about it my FL sized rounds were better than my neck sized rounds statistically speaking. And with different shooters.

The only real major difference between methods is the final step of wipe down/ inspect. Both type of cartridges(Neck size/FL size) emerge shiny but one has dried up Lee sizing lube on it. Lately I have been wiping off the FL sized cases off in a shop rag and wiping it off all the way to the bullet tip.

My hypothesis is this...could it be that the very very slightly lubed bullets go down the bore easier than the "dry" bullets?? At this point I believe yes it is so.

Here is my reasoning. As a kid I helped Dad shoe horses. He would forge the shoe then take a beeswaxed punch to make nail holes and quite easily I might add.

And yes, I understand about oiling or greasing ammo and chamber pressure, and the brass not being able to expand against the walls of the chamber completely. I believe that is true without a doubt. And very dangerous.

However,a bullet, that freely goes down the bore with lesser resistance gets the nod recently.

None on my hunting rifles. Not enough to make any difference. Krieger barrels are good about that. I just run a patch down the bore to remove the oil that was in it after the last cleaning. In fact will be doing that in about an hour before I leave for the ranch.

Factory tubes are completely a different matter. Most are not really clean when you are starting anyway. The bore scope does not lie--a patch can.

None of my rifles, whether factory or custom barreled, have ever needed anymore than a shot or two to sufficiently foul the bore. Sometimes the first shot is out of group, sometimes not. Regardless, I always make sure the bore is fouled with at least a couple shots when hunting and before I fire any groups for record. I clean every 30-40 rounds, depending.

I never clean my barrels out to bare steel; even the match ones. I think that barrels are like iron frying pans; you never clean them down to bare metal because that will remove the seasoning. Has worked for me for over 50 years now. I use copper remover very sparingly. Then, back at the range they start shooting faster.

quote:

Originally posted by vines:

quote:

Yep,

I have a stainless steel Ruger that takes 15 - 20 rounds to get accurate groups from after I clean it.

yea, i also have a ruger m77 S.S. .260 rem.
Fjold,, how big is your fouler groups before it starts grouping. i am shooting all fliers there is no group at all. this gun will shoot dime size groups at 100 yards when it is right. i have never had the problem before. it usually takes about 10 rounds or so to get back grouping. i even sent my weaver scope back to get it checked, weaver said it was nothing wrong with it. right now i am shooting a 4" group.

With a clean bore the gun will usually shoot the first 3 shot group between 3.5" and 4". A five shot group can be as big as 5"

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
I never clean my barrels out to bare steel; even the match ones. I think that barrels are like iron frying pans; you never clean them down to bare metal because that will remove the seasoning. Has worked for me for over 50 years now. I use copper remover very sparingly. Then, back at the range they start shooting faster.

I take them to mostly clean. IE, there is still light blue on the patch soaked in Bore Tech Eliminator. When the barrel gets fully clean the first time, an overnight soak in wipeout seems to get most barrels there.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
I never clean my barrels out to bare steel; even the match ones. I think that barrels are like iron frying pans; you never clean them down to bare metal because that will remove the seasoning. Has worked for me for over 50 years now. I use copper remover very sparingly. Then, back at the range they start shooting faster.

I too only take them to mostly clean, meaning there is still a little blue on the patch soaked in Bore Tech Eliminator.

If your rifle shoots 4 inch groups at 100 yards, then you could have more to worry about than cleaning.....

well, i went to the range today and found out that it takes about 15 - 18 rounds shot through my stainless steel ruger 260 rem. to get it back grouping. i shot various rounds that i had left over from reloading, let the barrel cool, didn't take long at 39 degrees, and then started shooting my good stuff. it went back to shooting .750 to 1.00" groups hey, but i enjoyed the feedback thanks..

Rough Barrels and light barrels on the Ruger 260 I have, setup vibration patterns that cause poor grouping. There is a point mine starts shooting good and a point thereafter when it stops. I sent it back to Ruger, they did not have a barrel for the 260, so they put it in a new synthetic stock for me, added an LC6 Trigger, at no charge, and sent it back with a target shot at 50 yards that was great. I love the 260 for my boy and the deer don't look at paper so I keep it in the condition it shoots best and we go hunting! One of these days after we shoot it enough, it will go for a re-barrel in heavier contour and 25" long with a Front sight. Put a peep on for stormy days and have a great walking around rifle all of his days.

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:

quote:

Originally posted by vines:

quote:

Yep,

I have a stainless steel Ruger that takes 15 - 20 rounds to get accurate groups from after I clean it.

yea, i also have a ruger m77 S.S. .260 rem.
Fjold,, how big is your fouler groups before it starts grouping. i am shooting all fliers there is no group at all. this gun will shoot dime size groups at 100 yards when it is right. i have never had the problem before. it usually takes about 10 rounds or so to get back grouping. i even sent my weaver scope back to get it checked, weaver said it was nothing wrong with it. right now i am shooting a 4" group.

With a clean bore the gun will usually shoot the first 3 shot group between 3.5" and 4". A five shot group can be as big as 5"

I have a Ruger M77 Mark II in 300 Win Mag that would do the exact thing. When clean it would shoot groups about 3-4". Once I've shot around 20-25 rounds down the barrel, groups would tighten up to around 0.5-0.75". This rifle went with me to South Africa in June with about 30 rounds down it and not cleaned until I returned.

quote:

Originally posted by vines:
well, i went to the range today and found out that it takes about 15 - 18 rounds shot through my stainless steel ruger 260 rem. to get it back grouping. i shot various rounds that i had left over from reloading, let the barrel cool, didn't take long at 39 degrees, and then started shooting my good stuff. it went back to shooting .750 to 1.00" groups hey, but i enjoyed the feedback thanks..

And that, friends, is why we stick with AR. Enjoy!

EVERY barrel reacts to cleaning in a different way...what YOU have to do is to figure out HOW each barrel reacts, then follow that procedure...that is if you have the patience!!! or want to bother...for hunting accuracy, 1-2" or so going postal with the cleaning rod isn't required...once a year is sufficient except for wet conditions.

I keep a "cleaning schedule" with each rifles logbook so I don't have to keep relearning.

I polish the bore of a new factory rifle with about 200-250 strokes, plus or minus???, using a nylon brush and a tight patch coated with 600, 800 and 1200 grit, you can feel the drag, depending on how the rifling was cut, before I shoot it...which is basically "breaking it in" or knocking off the rifling "bark" inside the bore, then finish "breaking it in" while I develop loads. Nothing scientific or specific about how many strokes or just which grit, I do it by "feel"...what that is I can't say or describe.

Then I let the target tell me when the bore is dirty enough to cause the groups to start opening up. I start missing the target and it's time to clean.

I have a 17 Rem, Shilen bbl that shoots tiny bugholes for 17-18 shots then opens up to ~1/2" for another 10-12, then start shotgun patterning until I clean it...usually 4-5 Shooters Choice patches and a couple dry ones, so I clean the powder fouling every 25 rounds. It stays that way for ~100 shots before needing to clean out the copper fouling. My 17 FB goes ~100 before needing work and my 20 Practical about the same...the various 22 cals depend on case size and brand of barrel.

My Douglas barreled 338-06 gets cleaned once a year, if that...4 foulers the next year and hasn't been de-coppered in 15 odd years and keeps putting 5 into a quarter year in and year out with ONE specific load...anything other load/bullet averages 1 1/2" if I'm lucky.

All the Shilen, Shaw, and McGowen barrels I've used in the past ten years or so have been easy to clean, don't copper foul much and I don't de-copper unless I start missing those sage ratz...then a couple on the target tells the story and then it get's de-coppered...NOT to bare metal necessarily, tho'.

Midways A & B barrels...some were good, a couple were not and I resorted to lead lapping then fire lapping then the barrel ended up as "pieces and parts".

I also don't clean powder fouling every time I shoot...usually once a year along with oiling for the winter.

There's a billion words spoken/written about cleaning and everyone I know has their own way of doing things...I don't think there is only one right/wrong way to do it, but I DO think that many rifles are messed up by too much "rod time".

Luck

If you have a rough barrel, it does not need cleaning; it needs Lapping.

I have found that smooth barrels shoot better clean and rough barrels need more fouling.......


.

I find that good smooth barrels don't accumulate much fouling, and rough barrels shoot best fouled. In either case, there's not a lot of incentive to clean unless it gets rained on or the rifle quits shooting.

Some of my barrels will put the first shot in the group at close range and some won't. I specify close range, because taking that first clean shot over a chronograph can give some startling results.

Its not uncommon for a factory barrel to need a box of shells through it to really settle down and group its best. I've had the exact opposite on rare occasions that would get perhaps one fouling shot and a couple of 3 shot groups before falling apart.