I'm having a strange problem with my Win M70 Stealth 22-250. I've gotten the gun to shoot 1/4" groups several times now with handloads, but it only does this if the barrel is quite dirty and fouled. If I clean it, it takes 10-15 rounds before it starts shooting those groups again. Out of a clean barrel, my groups open to roughly 2". I know it typically takes most guns 1 or 2 rounds to settle in after being cleaned, but more than 10 really seems excessive. Has anyone else had this problem? Is this an indication of a problem that I'm overlooking?

jethro,

What are you shooting through it, moly or bare? In either case it seems that maybe the bore is slightly oversize and your groups shrink once a little fouling has closed the tollerances.

Once it is fouled how long with the grouping hold up? If you using moly bullets you can try using one of the products used to pre-moly the bore before shooting.

I've got a 92F that does the same thing so I just keep shooting till I see the accuracy start to drop off. I will dry patch the bore when done for the day and clean everything external but leave the barrel fouled. I'll usually get 3 - 4 range session before doing a complete cleaning and then start the process over again.

I'm using bare bullets. Never got into the moly stuff. I haven't really shot it long enough to see when the accuracy falls off. I have said to myself that I need to do that, but it's hard to adopt that frame of mind when you are used to keeping your guns spotless. I usually break down after 2 trips to the range and clean it. Is there any alternative that can correct this?

I have custom barrels that won't shoot to their potential until they have more than a few rounds through them to get the fouling where the barrel wants it to be.

I would foul it until it shoots the 1/4" and leave it alone until it opens up again,..then clean it and re-foul it.

I have both a 223 and 22-250 Ruger varmiter and both rifles do not shoot extremely tight groups with a clean barrel. I usually have to shoot two or three foulers to get tight groups. They simply do not like a clean barrel.

[ 08-05-2003, 00:23: Message edited by: Handloader ]

Just an observation from the peanut gallery...., but, exactly, HOW is this a problem?

I'd donate supper for a week for a rifle like that.... LOL! Dutch.

Jethro,
That is not an uncommon phenomina...I have an 06 I only cleaned once in 5 years and it took a hundred rounds before it came back down to its 1/2" grouping, I have not cleaned it since...I have other guns that require cleaning every 20 rounds or so...Go with your gun, it won't lie to you...

The reason it was a problem for me is that I would go to the range one day, clean it when I got home, and then see a groundhog at 300yds the next evening. Shooting a hog at that distance with a 2+ MOA gun isn't gonna win me any contests.
As much as it will kill me, I guess I'll leave it dirty. Thanks for the replies!

Maybe it's the heat that caused some change in tolerance or straightness?

I have a Swedish Mauser that shoots good cold, shoots GREAT hot. Then the group will open up a little for increased fouling.

I have the same 'problem' with my Win 375H&H super express, with a clean barrel I get about a 3" group at a 100yards and after about 6 shots it comes down to 1" and stays that way for over 30 shots or till I've had enough,it really pisses me off as I can't stand leaving my barrel fouled until I shoot it next, maybe a rebarrel will be on the way....Les

15 shots to get to 1/4 moa, but how many to get to "acceptable" accuracy? Im with Dutch, sounds like some pretty high expectations.

Jethro, you said you haven't shot it enough to see where the accuracy falls off. You also say you take it home and clean it.

Again, just an observation, but if a rifle still shoots accurately, you have a load dialed in, then "why-oh-why" would you WANT to clean it?

The way I see it, the rifle gods gave you a gift, and you are complaining about it. JMO, Dutch.

When you say you leave your rifles dirty, do you not even run an oily patch through the bore when the days shooting is over? I only get to shoot once, maybe 2 times a month, and I don't know that I could tolerate putting a rifle away without even oiling the tube. But hey, if it works, I'm game

Rick

There is a thread from last winter here and the conclusion for many was that they sight in the rifle and then tape over the bore and leave it that way. We even carry extra tape on the barrel or stock to replace it if we fire a shot.

Another thing is that it's more important, to me at least, on where the first shot goes from what ever barrel condition that the rifle likes. I make notes on this and others keep a target with the first shot identified on it.

Groups should only matter with target rifles and maybe PD guns. Most everything else can be bagged with one shot.

Sanman, if they haven't been wet or otherwise need TLC, I don't clean it unless I feel it's "over the hill" so to speak, or if I am doing load development (which is the usual reason I clean).

A fired barrel is perfectly safe. It is a little known fact that the residue of modern primers behaves as a corrosion inhibitor. On top of that, I live in a desert climate, and we just don't have a corrosion problem, period. FWIW, Dutch.

Dutch, I was cleaning after each trip to the range mainly because that's what was always hammered into me when I was in the military with my M16. Force of habit I guess. I've gone cold turkey though. No more cleaning for me! Sounds pretty odd, but if that's what I have to do... I have gotten lucky with this rifle though. The only work I have done to it was on the trigger. Guess I should thank those gods you refer to.

Not that I use it, but how does this change if you use moly? Is it good to leave it in there if you aren't shooting for a while, especially for those that live in humid climates? Just curious.

Now you know what a FOWELING SHOT is.
I have met bench rest shooters who will clean between shots and on the other ent, some shooters will NEVER CLEAN THE BARREL.
I clean but, not to the extent of getting all the crud out of the barrel. My grooups average about 5/16th.

My rifle generaly requires 2 fliers called every 5 shots or so to get the best accuracy!

My rifle generaly requires 2 fliers called every 5 shots or so to get the best accuracy!

Hot Core, to answer your (2): I think this is a generation/ cultural thing. I have no military background, and I live in the desert. Primers used to be corrosive, and cleaning was required to prevent bore problems. The military continued using corrosive primers well after the sporting ammo switched to "clean" primers, so many GI's have this "cleaning requirement" installed in their DNA.

Now, let's be honest, there are more than a few things that the Military does that are more driven by history and culture than fact. For example, the military requires that recruits have a full complement of teeth. This requirement was started during the Civil War, and ensured that the soldiers can properly bite the top of the paper cartridges issued. I think we probably could drop that requirement, also.

Modern primers really ARE slighly corrosion inhibitive. If you get a chance, see if you can borrow the book "Remington Arms" by Alden Hatch. It describes the development of the modern primer, and has some pretty amusing anecdotes about the testing of the new formula. Add to that stainless barrels, and why would one spend time, materials, dealing with the fumes and the chance of buggering up the throat or crown by cleaning?

Some rifles I have need cleaned, but a couple, (my PPC and WSSM), I can shoot for hundreds of loads (low pressure) before accuracy comes up above about .7 MOA. Guess which ones get shot?

I have to be honest here, but to suggest replacing a barrel just because it shoots well dirty is a bit peculiar. If the barrel walks the shots, then I can see the problem. If not, until the barrel actually gets damaged enough it quits shooting (and again, I have never seen it happen) I can not see a reason to replace it. So, it might get a few pits. If you shoot it, it will wear out, too. That's the nature of the game. Dutch.

It is not unusual for a rifle barrel to need to be fouled for accuracy. Jacket material is scrubbed off and fills the little imperfections.

After shooting leave it alone until accuracy falls off. A dry rifle is not going to rust and pit. If you are in a humid environment put a light bulb or dehumidifier in your safe.

If you just can't sleep with a "dirty" rifle then just run a lightly oiled patch through it followed by a dry patch.

Wally

I used to clean my guns down to bare steel all the time using a FoulOut or various solvents. DON"T DO IT! It takes too many shots to settle in.
I took my favorite 30-06 to a match one time. Perfectly clean bore. It took almost 30 shots for it to settle in. By that time the match was over and I lost. From then on, I wipe out the powder fouling, maybe get some of the copper fouling and that's it.
BTW, Moly is not a hoax. It works damn good. After 80 shots or so, wipe it out with a couple Kroil patches and you're done. Then maybe after about 200 shots (or whenever your analness can't stand it any longer) you clean it with JB too. In effect, the gun is never completely clean of all fouling. And the accuracy never falls off. I've been shooting Master and even High Master scores like that.